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Thoughts on Third Worldism?

I have often heard ultra-lefts describe Marxists who oppose settler-colonialism and uphold AES as being "Third Worldists".

Looking at what people like Jason Unruhe have to say about the topic, Third Worldism does not seem entirely baseless (e.g. the proletariat in the imperial core more often being labor aristocrats).

So, what are our thoughts on Third Worldism?

DornerStan - 6mon

I don't think it's baseless at all. But things aren't binary nor static, they're flows and tensions in a constant state of flux.

Western individualism takes third worldist thought and transforms it into "there's no hope, only options are escapism or adventurism". Rather than taking it to mean class consciousness isn't a given in the imperial core, it's something we must fight for and cultivate.

It's also a good temper to the Trotskyist chauvinism I'm growing ever more tired of.

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haui - 6mon

I really appreciate this comment. It basically puts my general direction into words. I have constant discussions with healthy white folks with a bachelors degree and nearly six figures who say socialism is a nice idea but... It makes my skin crawl. I have lived through starvation and homelessness. it is incredibly hard to stay friendly in the face of such privilege.

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小莱卡 - 6mon

Third worldism, as i understand it, the position that the working class in the imperial core is inherently reactionary and thus an enemy, is a completely natural position to take for a global south person. Western marxists feel personally attacked for this position and end up rejecting it and discrediting it. This is not to say that there are no good comrades in the West, but simply that the vast majority are not.

Honestly it's a good way to lure out the chauvinism of western marxists.

Domenico Losurdo has written extensively on this on "Western Marxism".

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MarxMadness - 6mon

Western marxists feel personally attacked for this position and end up rejecting it and discrediting it.

This is certainly part of it, but there are at least three other reasons western marxists hold some reservations:

  1. Inside the imperial core, it's often framed as essentially a defeatist position. If a leftist from the U.S. accepts the idea that pretty much everyone around them is inherently reactionary, what are they supposed to do? You can't decide at the start that there's no way to win.
  2. While the material conditions of a poor person in the imperial core are better than poor people in the imperial periphery, the imperial machine rarely ties its exploitation directly to that benefit. A key part of modern imperialism (especially in the U.S.) is denying that you're an empire at all. When that's combined with obscene inequality in the core, you have the basics for building class consciousness even if on paper your imperial working class is better off than working people in the rest of the world.
  3. It occasionally veers into determinist/essentialist arguments, which have all sorts of problems.
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Commiejones - 6mon

These arguments are all framed in the western individualist mindset. Just because there is no hope of seeing success in your lifetime is not a reason to help the process forward. Communism will come regardless of what any westerner does. The tides of history don't depend on any one person but that doesn't absolve people choosing to do their duty being part of the tide.

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小莱卡 - 6mon

滴水穿石! 👍

Water droplets drill the rock.

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Makan - 6mon

Western Marxists are a blight to be honest.

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Makan - 6mon

I've read Domenico Losurdo, but honestly, I've also read Hinterland, and frankly, most people in China aren't "good comrades" either; most aren't communist and neither was it with the Soviet Union.

You don't need everyone to be a communist and anti-imperialist; there are more anti-imperialists in the USA, judging by the orgs, than there are outright anti-imperialist communists (excluding the fucking PatSocs).

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Makan - 6mon

From what I've heard though, Perry Anderson's work on Western Marxism is a good read and I have it on my list.

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grabonex @lemmy.ml - 6mon

Wait, from the perspective of a Third Worldist, isn’t Perry Anderson’s Western Marxism precisely the problem? That’s at least what I gathered, without having read Losurdo specifically, from reviews of his work such as this one https://monthlyreview.org/press/201187/

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小莱卡 - 6mon

yes, it's precisely that. its like recommending kautsky after mentioning lenin.

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Makan - 6mon

Wdym

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Makan - 6mon

I've heard mixed things, good and bad, and that's why I (partly) intend to read it, but keep in mind that Monthly Review, while good, isn't the only authority on Marxism-Leninism.

I will give you my thoughts and report back on the book; at the very least, Perry Anderson has been quite critical of Western Marxism.

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小莱卡 - 6mon

heard from whom? Perry Anderson is literally the embodiment of western marxism.

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Makan - 6mon

We talking about the same one?

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小莱卡 - 6mon

The book i mentioned by Losurdo is literally a reply to Perry Anderson, and you are here recommending me his work! 😂 This is as if after recommending you to read Lenin, you replied me with saying that i should read Kautsky ffs.

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Makan - 6mon

I was not, I think. I was just saying that I heard good things about Perry Anderson's work.

But I see that you weren't referring to Perry Anderson's work, but Domenico Losurdo's here.

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小莱卡 - 6mon

Read the things before recommending them, you're here throwing trotstkyist anti-AES writers as recommendations.

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Makan - 6mon

I am not and I read everything, even Hinterland, which is anti-AES to a degree, but that's not the point of the book, and it's observations cannot be denied and are well-argued and researched.

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Makan - 6mon

Also, I didn't make a recommendation.

Edit: Except for Hinterland, of course.

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CriticalResist8 - 6mon

I mean, the Global South is already doing our labor for us. Must they do our revolution too?

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Zronger - 6mon

I have never considered it that way. Although, to be fair, Stalin did comment on the need for each country to have their own revolution done by themselves without direct intervention from socialist states.

"You see, we Marxists believe that a revolution will also take place in other countries. But it will take place only when the revolutionaries in those countries think it possible, or necessary. The export of revolution is nonsense. Every country will make its own revolution if it wants to, and if it does not want to, there will be no revolution. For example, our country wanted to make a revolution and made it, and now we are building a new, classless society. But to assert that we want to make a revolution in other countries, to interfere in their lives, means saying what is untrue, and what we have never advocated." —Joseph Stalin, Interview Between J. Stalin and Roy Howard

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小莱卡 - 6mon

yup i enjoy this quote a lot, at the end of the day each nation should work around its determinate conditions, if there is no political will to do a revolution there won't be a revolution and western marxists have no right to downplay the struggles revolutionaries in AES have went through.

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bigleaguechew - 6mon

Lots of people already in the west use it to justify sitting on their ass because everyone else is "inherently reactionary" ignoring the relative downward trend of the wages and living standards of the most oppressed classes in the west, the growing social unrest, protests, street actions, etc every year. I think understanding super-profits and the labor aristocracy is an important part of our analysis that needs to be considered, but westerners using it as a reason to pre emptively give up so they can be online armchair communists who have arrived at the Correct Positions that just so happen to require no action on their part to organize since it's already a lost cause by their view is frustrating, pointless, and defeatist

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Commiejones - 6mon

While I partly agree I think you are underestimating the importance of agitprop. Most western leftists can't do much other than agitation and doing so online is a valid method.

Much of the global north is still a long way from popular uprising and at this stage the actions that are needed often don't look much like work compared to the situation in usa where there are physical direct actions are needed.

Pushing the "correct positions" is an important job to avoid people falling to ultras or social fascists.

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queermunist she/her - 6mon

I think bourgeoisification was something that happened when the empire was at its peak, and even then, the imperial core contained its own internal colonies where workers were superexploited for superprofits.

I also don't think it's necessarily useful to think of first world workers as bourgeoisified anymore. The superprofit are running out.

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小莱卡 - 6mon

I would believe it when i see it, when the working class of the imperial core decide it's enough and overthrow the goverment instead of joining the army to get their share of spoils abroad that is.

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queermunist she/her - 6mon

Army recruitment is down, unionization is up. Support for the government has fallen and support for imperial adventures has also fallen. Wages have been stagnant when measured against inflation for decades. This all means something, don't you think?

Maybe it's premature to say the first world workers have been fully debourgeoisified, but I think the process has begun.

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Makan - 6mon

The AFL-CIO have had two leaders so far to the left, one of which was enthusiastic about Evo Morales and even supported him during the coup.

Not saying much because it's the AFL-CIO, but it speaks to a growing radicalization within its ranks.

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Makan - 6mon

The working-class in the imperial core has a police-state boot on their necks and it's been there for a long-ass time and it isn't going away and will only increase... Give it time.

It's a lot easier to start Naxalbari (and even that lost its goodwill in the few areas they control or controlled, up to now) in a place like India or do a coup in Africa.

It's a lot harder to topple a government like what happened with France in 1968 and even then it was just a bourgeois change of leadership in the long-run, albeit somewhat shaky in the case of Mitterand.

Latinx, Black, Asian, some poor whites, etc. don't want the racist police and prison boot on their neck and that just makes it harder to organize; we need more organization more than anything.

We have too many activist groups and movements strewn all over the country if you check, say, Instagram (and whatever they'll show on Facebook) in the local and maybe state level.

But barely any unity or collaboration.

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小莱卡 - 6mon

This is straight up my problem, western leftists act as if they are the most oppressed people on earth and downplay the sacrifices other peoples had to make. This is being defeated without even starting.

It’s a lot easier to start Naxalbari (and even that lost its goodwill in the few areas they control or controlled, up to now) in a place like India or do a coup in Africa.

insane statement, the life of a person is worth absolutely nothing in these places. In rural India cops or thugs straight up murder your entire family if they think you stole something from an employer/master, and you think you have it rough because cops use rubber bullets on you.

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Makan - 6mon

"act as if they are the most oppressed people on earth and downplay the sacrifices other peoples had to make."

I agree, some do think this, it's true.

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Makan - 6mon

The problem is that Africa and India are less industrialized; there are places to hide.

The fact that Americans and Canadians are strewn about but also mostly coagulated in the same areas doesn't help matters either.

Did you know that the USA has the highest prison population in the world?

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小莱卡 - 6mon

Look i don't want to keep talking about this because i will get pissed off.

The people from the US won't have a revolution because there is no political will by the working class, it's as simple as that. And i won't change my views until the american working class does something to prove me wrong.

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Makan - 6mon

They've done near-mass uprisings, at least, like 1918 to 1919, but yes, no real socialist revolution, it's true.

I suspect that as the USA and Europe lose more of their grip on Eastern Europe, Africa, Latin America, and Asia, we will see more strife in the imperial core (well, I certainly hope they lose more of their grip, but I'm cautiously optimistic!)

Hopefully, we agree on that, at least.

stalin heart hands

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Makan - 6mon

Hinterland is a good book on this, though biased against China.

There hasn't really been a labor aristocracy since the 1970s; everything changed then.

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MarxMadness - 6mon

There hasn’t really been a labor aristocracy since the 1970s

I think the primacy of the labor aristocracy (in the U.S., at least) has only really started to degrade much more recently. There was a fairly strong (though changing) economy in the 90s, the first dotcom boom, then the early tech boom, then the consolidation of the tech companies into 4-5 giants in the 2010s (after the Great Recession).

Now that even those jobs are drying up, and now that multiple generations are seeing the twin crunch of that + the cost of living explosion (in education especially), you're finally seeing widespread, lasting pessimism about the economic future.

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Makan - 6mon

Yeah, definitely don't underestimate the cost-of-living crisis; it's developing rapidly at a rate that's historic, at the very least.

I'm not saying the effects of the stagflation crisis and the economic reconstructing of the 1970s had an immediate effect, but certainly in the long-run, it did, and only accelerated during the 1990s with Bill Clinton.

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m532 - 6mon

The working class in the imperial core is chock full of labor aristocrats. They are our enemies. Just ask them about the ukraine war and watch then turn into white supremacists live

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SlayGuevara - 6mon

I have seen it as some sort of fringe and mostly online behavior within the communist movement.

I'm active for what I think can be considered one of the more serious and successful communist parties within the west, without wanting to sound like I'm bragging. And I don't see how we would be off any better by being maoist third worldist compared to how we are operating now. We are organised trying to better our own country while at the same time recognizing the unequal exchange between north and south, trying to improve it from our own position by, for example, lifting sanctions, handing out sanctions to Israel, seeking cooperation with other movements around the world.

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Makan - 6mon

From the early 1970s onward, things have been getting worse for the U.S. and Canadian working-class.

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