Why are LGBTQ rights so controversial in the USSR/Former USSR anyway (compared to other places)?
Obviously intially places like the GDR and Cuba didnr immediately become bastions of lgtbq rights, but overtime they definitely developed a lot in that respect. I can understand the intial roll back of these rights right after a revolution (like on Cuba), and then gradually reexpanding over time. The idea being that homosexuality is viewed as Bourgeois decadence because the Bourgeois wouldn't be punished (as much) for that behavior, so instead of getting rid of the law they apply it equally across society. Of course this is wrong and eventually the people choose to give more rights to lgbtq people.
China and other Asian countries also kinda had this issue, but it seems to be more of a general conservatism and indifference, depending on where you are. So Vietnam is generally pretty positive, China in the middle and the DPRK closer to Russia and such.
So I'm just curious why the USSR and it's constituent states were and are so against the idea. Not in a moralist "omg I can't believe it" way, just that the incongruence confuses me. Sure, after the USSR collapse and the focus against western imperialism, I can definitely see why they're this way because of imperialist pink washing. But why was this never changed during the cold war, while in East Germany it was?
Drewfro66 - 2mon
I think it comes down to a fundamental difference between how Liberals vs. Marxists look at laws and rights.
Liberals are idealists; laws are guarantees of basic Liberal rights and freedoms. Laws should be based on a society's morals. A typical Liberal believes that there exists a "perfect" Constitution and set of laws that would create a just society, it just needs to be developed and enforced.
Marxists are materialists and scientists; rights are guaranteed not through laws, but through expressions of worker power and solidarity (Unions, Parties, Councils, etc.). A Marxist views a law as a tool, to be used towards an end.
Within most modern societies, queer communities tend towards cultural subversion, and in Marxist societies this often manifests as a tendency towards Liberal counter-revolution. Laws criminalizing or otherwise targeting homosexuality are an unprincipled, blunt application of force against a group that is seen as being counter-revolutionary.
These laws can be seen as analogous to mass population transfers of dissident ethic groups, or the resettlement of political prisoners to Siberia, or the mass executions of dissident Socialists such as the Trotskyites. The well-intentioned desire to brutally and swiftly crush enemies of the revolution is applied unscientifically in ways that are expedient but damaging in the long-term.
To put it another way, the Communists passed laws to persecute a dissident subculture, instead of putting effort into integrating that subculture into mainstream Marxist society. In a vacuum, this was a mistake, but it's also true that during the period the Soviets recriminalized homosexuality they had much bigger issues to contend with to put significant effort into promoting the acceptance and integration of homosexuality into Soviet culture.
tl;dr Siege Socialism
23
Nocturne Dragonite - 2mon
Lol Christianity. The church had too much influence.
Great video! It really answered other questions that I had too.
8
Marat - 2mon
Oh, yeah, I forgot that I saw that posted here a little whole back.
The video is fine, actually it's very good and helpful, but it doesn't quite answer the question of why it remained criminalized even after ww2.
3
rainpizza - 2mon
The video is fine, actually it’s very good and helpful, but it doesn’t quite answer the question of why it remained criminalized even after ww2.
The answer is actually very simple and it is hinted at the end of the video 47:16 to 47:34 where they mentioned that the USSR in the 90s was presenting trans as positive and also hosted plenty LGBTQ movies. To put it in different words, the LGBTQ grassroots were stronger in the 90s and they were finally pushing for the criminalization to be undone. Grassroots organizations are essential for any social justice for the oppressed to appear.
However, this push failed when the USSR was illegally dismantled by the Yeltsin gang.
8
TankieReplyBot - 2mon
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
King_Simp in genzhou
Why are LGBTQ rights so controversial in the USSR/Former USSR anyway (compared to other places)?
Obviously intially places like the GDR and Cuba didnr immediately become bastions of lgtbq rights, but overtime they definitely developed a lot in that respect. I can understand the intial roll back of these rights right after a revolution (like on Cuba), and then gradually reexpanding over time. The idea being that homosexuality is viewed as Bourgeois decadence because the Bourgeois wouldn't be punished (as much) for that behavior, so instead of getting rid of the law they apply it equally across society. Of course this is wrong and eventually the people choose to give more rights to lgbtq people.
China and other Asian countries also kinda had this issue, but it seems to be more of a general conservatism and indifference, depending on where you are. So Vietnam is generally pretty positive, China in the middle and the DPRK closer to Russia and such.
So I'm just curious why the USSR and it's constituent states were and are so against the idea. Not in a moralist "omg I can't believe it" way, just that the incongruence confuses me. Sure, after the USSR collapse and the focus against western imperialism, I can definitely see why they're this way because of imperialist pink washing. But why was this never changed during the cold war, while in East Germany it was?
I think it comes down to a fundamental difference between how Liberals vs. Marxists look at laws and rights.
Liberals are idealists; laws are guarantees of basic Liberal rights and freedoms. Laws should be based on a society's morals. A typical Liberal believes that there exists a "perfect" Constitution and set of laws that would create a just society, it just needs to be developed and enforced.
Marxists are materialists and scientists; rights are guaranteed not through laws, but through expressions of worker power and solidarity (Unions, Parties, Councils, etc.). A Marxist views a law as a tool, to be used towards an end.
Within most modern societies, queer communities tend towards cultural subversion, and in Marxist societies this often manifests as a tendency towards Liberal counter-revolution. Laws criminalizing or otherwise targeting homosexuality are an unprincipled, blunt application of force against a group that is seen as being counter-revolutionary.
These laws can be seen as analogous to mass population transfers of dissident ethic groups, or the resettlement of political prisoners to Siberia, or the mass executions of dissident Socialists such as the Trotskyites. The well-intentioned desire to brutally and swiftly crush enemies of the revolution is applied unscientifically in ways that are expedient but damaging in the long-term.
To put it another way, the Communists passed laws to persecute a dissident subculture, instead of putting effort into integrating that subculture into mainstream Marxist society. In a vacuum, this was a mistake, but it's also true that during the period the Soviets recriminalized homosexuality they had much bigger issues to contend with to put significant effort into promoting the acceptance and integration of homosexuality into Soviet culture.
tl;dr Siege Socialism
Lol Christianity. The church had too much influence.
This YouTube video explains it pretty well. I'd try to summarize it, but it's been a few weeks since I watched it and have brain fog from a virus rn.
Great video! It really answered other questions that I had too.
Oh, yeah, I forgot that I saw that posted here a little whole back.
The video is fine, actually it's very good and helpful, but it doesn't quite answer the question of why it remained criminalized even after ww2.
The answer is actually very simple and it is hinted at the end of the video 47:16 to 47:34 where they mentioned that the USSR in the 90s was presenting trans as positive and also hosted plenty LGBTQ movies. To put it in different words, the LGBTQ grassroots were stronger in the 90s and they were finally pushing for the criminalization to be undone. Grassroots organizations are essential for any social justice for the oppressed to appear.
However, this push failed when the USSR was illegally dismantled by the Yeltsin gang.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
An era of bleakest reaction set in.