In order to monitor encrypted communication, investigators will in future, according to the Senate draft and the Änderungen der Abgeordneten, not only be allowed to hack IT systems but also to secretly enter suspects' apartments.
If remote installation of the spyware is technically not possible, paragraph 26 explicitly allows investigators to "secretly enter and search premises" in order to gain access to IT systems. In fact, Berlin is thus legalizing – as Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania did before – state intrusion into private apartments in order to physically install Trojans, for example via USB stick.
RiverRock - 7day
Something something european democracy something something bulwark against Russian Chinese authoritarianism, something something east german stasi
Such hollow, opportunistic rehtoric from people and governments who are doing the exact same things they accuse others of. Germany in particular, with it's to-the-hilt support of Israel's genocide, does not seem to have learned it's lesson.
65
☂️- - 6day
fascists generally accuse others of what they are doing themselves. like how some of the most homophobic ones are sometimes secretly very gay.
because these people's politics aren't based on facts, but their feelings, ironically.
14
widowdoll @ttrpg.network - 6day
National leaders only pretend to be opposed to each other.
In reality, they all know that their citizens are slaves to make them richer.
2
Helix 🧬 - 7day
any site where I can download this cool spyware and run it so they don't enter my home? Does it run on Arch Linux?
Wonder if they'd install it on all devices or only my desktop since I have all others with me at all times...
24
reagansrottencorpse - 6day
You guys dont mind if the pigs install malware on your computer do you?
19
Agent641 @lemmy.world - 6day
If they can install it on TempleOS then more power to them.
28
solrize - 1w
In the US it's always been possible to do this with a proper warrant, though avoiding detection if the person expects something could be difficult. Security cameras and so on.
I'm not too bothered by this given how much work it is. They will only do it if there's a criminal case or some other significant interest to work from. It's not a tool of warrantless mass surveillance even though it's been done abusively/illegally from time to time.
17
7bicycles [he/him] - 7day
They will only do it if there's a criminal case or some other significant interest to work from.
Significant interest has, just to name a few, lead to german SWAT storming the wrong appartment because somebody who used to live there called a politician a wiener on facebook. And also locking down entire main train stations for hours on account of some guy or at best a "super recognizer" saw what looked like the AI aged version of an RAF member. Or confiscating literally every electronic from someone because they used chalk spray on something (which is not vandalism as ruled by many judgements because it just washes off).
25
reagansrottencorpse - 6day
RAF is based
2
grey_maniac @lemmy.ca - 7day
Think about what we did in Ireland in the 80s. It's no different, and it only worked marginally. Although that cpuld be because opsec was pretty good among the provisional IRA active cells.
16
solrize - 7day
Idk how stuff was done in Ireland but there weren't so many computers then. It's probably easier to install audio bugs than conduct an "evil maid attack" (infosec term for surreptitiously messing with someone's computer, traditionally in the person's hotel room) if they have taken any precautions.
8
birdwing @lemmy.blahaj.zone - 7day
Feeling like this is a gliding scale though. What's next, a surveillance state?
9
solrize - 7day
I think those are two different things. They might do 1000s of secret break-ins per year, maybe 10,000's. But probably not millions. OTOH, mass surveillance is used against just about everyone, i.e. billions. So the scale is different.
Here in the US, I suspect secret break-ins are rare, because they are risky (armed occupants etc). So they do SWAT raids instead. Abusive and too often fatal, but not that secret.
0
Bloomcole @lemmy.world - 7day
Yes, the EU itself is working hard on the surveillance state separately.
Chat control being one of them
6
eleitl @lemmy.zip - 6day
Yeah, it doesn't scale. Most of the surveillance (legal intercept, SINA hardware on ISP) and injection of government malware will be through the hostile network.
People who run a tight ship will have a small attack surface.
3
Burnoutdv @feddit.org - 6day
In theory a judge has to look through each surveillance act of the police in germoney, in 12 years not a single one got denied. Because its paperwork to defend civil rights but just nodding to whatever the officers say costs nothing
3
Fossifoo [comrade/them] - 6day
I was under the impression that not only has this been the (German) law for decades, it used to be the only legal way of installing spyware and also exfiltrating data. But I can't be assed to look it up.
2
termaxima @slrpnk.net - 6day
If I ever move to Germany I'll remember to booby trap my doors and windows.
10
Chais @sh.itjust.works - 4day
Go full Home Alone.
1
bad_news @lemmy.billiam.net - 1w
This has been happening in the US since 9/11 at least
9
quick_snail @feddit.nl - 6day
This is kinda silly. Most implants are installed by the NSA at the airport when you buy the device.
It's much easier for them to install implants on devices at the time you order it than to break into your house.
9
Lowleekun [comrade/them, he/him] - 6day
It is not silly, it is oppressive. Sure it is easier to install malware at the airport, but now they got "legal" ways of entering your apartment without your knowledge. This would make planting evidence so much easier. I am not saying we are at this point were the police plants evidence to get a case against someone but it is paving the road.
Why implement the law in the first place? Because it makes it easier for the people to live with the oppression. We sure like to believe we are free.
11
quick_snail @feddit.nl - 6day
Sure, it's bad. But it shows they're inept.
It's pretty damn hard to enter someone's home without your knowledge, when so many homes and apartment buildings have cameras everywhere these days..
1
quick_snail @feddit.nl - 6day
The Stasi is back
6
☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ - 6day
you mean the Gestapo since GDR was integrated into the west German model
17
unwarlikeExtortion - 6day
Well, that sounds very undue-processy of them. Obviously what a same, civilized society would allow.
4
Clocks [They/Them] - 6day
Hey wasn't Germany a democracy and didn't have Statsi?
4
UltraGiGaGigantic - 6day
Capitalism advanced towards end stage.
3
freedickpics - 5day
And I'm sure if citizens do anything to remove malware on their devices they'll be criminally charged too 🤡
3
MonkderVierte @lemmy.zip - 7day
That's not a police job. Is german secret service entirely useless or what?
2
aurelar - 4day
So, the German police are the Stasi?
2
Zak @lemmy.world - 7day
I don't have a problem with the police entering private homes and installing spyware when authorized by a court order supported by strong evidence. That's narrowly focused on investigating crime.
What I'm very concerned about is attempts to perform surveillance without individualized suspicion or independent oversight.
-29
evujumenuk - 7day
I think installing spyware on someone's device is two or three steps more drastic a measure than a simple search, which is about the extent of what a court order can authorize police to do right now. It feels conceptually close to tampering with evidence present at a (possible) crime scene. To add to this, spyware is not the same thing as installing a physical listening device in someone's home. It requires far-reaching permissions on a system, and can influence lots of other software on the same system. You'd have to have an extreme level of confidence that this won't lead to accidental or intentional planting of incriminating material. And, in my opinion that sort of load-bearing trust is not really something law enforcement has earned in the general case.
schizoidman in privacy
Berlin: Police can secretly enter homes for state trojan installation
https://www.heise.de/en/news/Berlin-Police-can-secretly-enter-homes-for-state-trojan-installation-11103284.htmlcross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/54414754
Something something european democracy something something bulwark against Russian Chinese authoritarianism, something something east german stasi
Such hollow, opportunistic rehtoric from people and governments who are doing the exact same things they accuse others of. Germany in particular, with it's to-the-hilt support of Israel's genocide, does not seem to have learned it's lesson.
fascists generally accuse others of what they are doing themselves. like how some of the most homophobic ones are sometimes secretly very gay.
because these people's politics aren't based on facts, but their feelings, ironically.
National leaders only pretend to be opposed to each other.
In reality, they all know that their citizens are slaves to make them richer.
any site where I can download this cool spyware and run it so they don't enter my home? Does it run on Arch Linux?
Wonder if they'd install it on all devices or only my desktop since I have all others with me at all times...
You guys dont mind if the pigs install malware on your computer do you?
If they can install it on TempleOS then more power to them.
In the US it's always been possible to do this with a proper warrant, though avoiding detection if the person expects something could be difficult. Security cameras and so on.
I'm not too bothered by this given how much work it is. They will only do it if there's a criminal case or some other significant interest to work from. It's not a tool of warrantless mass surveillance even though it's been done abusively/illegally from time to time.
Significant interest has, just to name a few, lead to german SWAT storming the wrong appartment because somebody who used to live there called a politician a wiener on facebook. And also locking down entire main train stations for hours on account of some guy or at best a "super recognizer" saw what looked like the AI aged version of an RAF member. Or confiscating literally every electronic from someone because they used chalk spray on something (which is not vandalism as ruled by many judgements because it just washes off).
RAF is based
Think about what we did in Ireland in the 80s. It's no different, and it only worked marginally. Although that cpuld be because opsec was pretty good among the provisional IRA active cells.
Idk how stuff was done in Ireland but there weren't so many computers then. It's probably easier to install audio bugs than conduct an "evil maid attack" (infosec term for surreptitiously messing with someone's computer, traditionally in the person's hotel room) if they have taken any precautions.
Feeling like this is a gliding scale though. What's next, a surveillance state?
I think those are two different things. They might do 1000s of secret break-ins per year, maybe 10,000's. But probably not millions. OTOH, mass surveillance is used against just about everyone, i.e. billions. So the scale is different.
Here in the US, I suspect secret break-ins are rare, because they are risky (armed occupants etc). So they do SWAT raids instead. Abusive and too often fatal, but not that secret.
Yes, the EU itself is working hard on the surveillance state separately.
Chat control being one of them
Yeah, it doesn't scale. Most of the surveillance (legal intercept, SINA hardware on ISP) and injection of government malware will be through the hostile network. People who run a tight ship will have a small attack surface.
In theory a judge has to look through each surveillance act of the police in germoney, in 12 years not a single one got denied. Because its paperwork to defend civil rights but just nodding to whatever the officers say costs nothing
I was under the impression that not only has this been the (German) law for decades, it used to be the only legal way of installing spyware and also exfiltrating data. But I can't be assed to look it up.
If I ever move to Germany I'll remember to booby trap my doors and windows.
Go full Home Alone.
This has been happening in the US since 9/11 at least
This is kinda silly. Most implants are installed by the NSA at the airport when you buy the device.
It's much easier for them to install implants on devices at the time you order it than to break into your house.
It is not silly, it is oppressive. Sure it is easier to install malware at the airport, but now they got "legal" ways of entering your apartment without your knowledge. This would make planting evidence so much easier. I am not saying we are at this point were the police plants evidence to get a case against someone but it is paving the road.
Why implement the law in the first place? Because it makes it easier for the people to live with the oppression. We sure like to believe we are free.
Sure, it's bad. But it shows they're inept.
It's pretty damn hard to enter someone's home without your knowledge, when so many homes and apartment buildings have cameras everywhere these days..
The Stasi is back
you mean the Gestapo since GDR was integrated into the west German model
Well, that sounds very undue-processy of them. Obviously what a same, civilized society would allow.
Hey wasn't Germany a democracy and didn't have Statsi?
Capitalism advanced towards end stage.
And I'm sure if citizens do anything to remove malware on their devices they'll be criminally charged too 🤡
That's not a police job. Is german secret service entirely useless or what?
So, the German police are the Stasi?
I don't have a problem with the police entering private homes and installing spyware when authorized by a court order supported by strong evidence. That's narrowly focused on investigating crime.
What I'm very concerned about is attempts to perform surveillance without individualized suspicion or independent oversight.
I think installing spyware on someone's device is two or three steps more drastic a measure than a simple search, which is about the extent of what a court order can authorize police to do right now. It feels conceptually close to tampering with evidence present at a (possible) crime scene. To add to this, spyware is not the same thing as installing a physical listening device in someone's home. It requires far-reaching permissions on a system, and can influence lots of other software on the same system. You'd have to have an extreme level of confidence that this won't lead to accidental or intentional planting of incriminating material. And, in my opinion that sort of load-bearing trust is not really something law enforcement has earned in the general case.