This is something the EU should really regulate, unfortunately they are busy regulating oat milk drink and veggieburgers.
142
persona_non_gravitas - 2mon
I contacted the EU DMA team a while back. Part of the response:
We have taken note of your concerns and, while we cannot comment on ongoing dialogue with gatekeepers, these considerations will form part of our assessment of the justifications for the verification process provided by Google.
So at least some part of the bureaucracy are aware of it.
76
doleo @lemmy.one - 2mon
That’s the copy pasta I got, too!
10
BarHocker @discuss.tchncs.de - 2mon
Same
4
med @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
The thing I don't understand about any of this, is why can't you comment on ongoing dialogues with the gatekeepers?
I understand the basic tenants of keeping the discussion closed until official statements can be prepared, to prevent the press and the public from going off half cocked. That makes sense for private matters.
This is not private. I can't understand what is the point of negotiating law for people if they can't even see the ongoing process?
8
artyom - 2mon
The EU hasn't even been able to stop Apple from doing this shit.
The EU is actively preventing their own people from leaving the Google ecosystem with the Play Integrity API in their own apps.
39
mistermodal - 2mon
I'm confused why so many open source developers think that the EU is going to be the foster parents of FOSS communities
19
drspawndisaster @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
There's a real effort in some EU countries to fund FOSS projects to get out from under US dominated tech.
23
caseyweederman - 2mon
It's because they did a thing with USB once
10
technocrit @lemmy.dbzer0.com - 2mon
Pretty sure the EU was designed to serve the interests of carnists and other capitalists.
6
amos @mander.xyz - 2mon
Considering Google and Apple both donate to Trump, we really need an alternative: Linux mobile OS. A linux OS that can be installed on a range of phones, from cheap to more expensiove. Just buy the phone and install the OS, as you do on PCs.
59
myszka - 2mon
Good linux mobile OSs already exist, but phones' hardware is still proprietary and messed up, so it is very difficult to provide a good hardware support for those mobile OSs
26
mulcahey @lemmy.world - 2mon
Yes, the bottleneck isn't software, it's hardware. We need phones with unlocked bootloaders
Samsung s22 and s25, checking in. Graphene won't be viable for the vast, overwhelming majority of Android users today or in the coming seasons.
I hope people figure out some kind of virtualization/docker-containerization solution to the coming Goo-lag.
31
Ferk - 2mon
Samsung s22 and s25
I'm still holding some hope that maybe Samsung's flavor of the OS won't have the restriction of requiring Google keys. Specially considering that Samsung has its own "Galaxy Store" with app submissions controlled by them, not Google.
Though it's possible they might simply extend the signatures accepted to include also the ones signed by them ^^U ..still it would give them a competitive edge to remove the restriction so they might be incentivized to do it.
13
source_of_truth @lemmy.world - 2mon
I'm hopeful that the hackers will win. I will never underestimate the power of motivated, scorned engineers.
7
Ferk - 2mon
I mean, you can hack/root most devices, even right now. I expect that's not changing.
3
Axolotl - 2mon
Probably by removing some google service or some other gimmick it can be bypassed
1
Kevin - 2mon
If they want a lot of play store banking apps + other things that opt into play protect to work they'll need to add the signature verification requirement.
2
Ferk - 2mon
Will the banks in Korea, EU and many other areas where Samsung phones are very common keep that restriction if it meant alienating that many users? I doubt it. That's why I think the support of a big player on this would be a killing move.
Also I'm not 100% convinced that it's impossible to have some verification without it depending on this one change.
4
Kevin - 2mon
That's a really good point, basically throw their weight around a bit eh?
2
cardfire @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
I'm even willing to use the web apps or webpages for banking, if the browsers can make the handshakes. I'll forfeit using the bank first party apps, if their websites are full featured.
3
Kevin - 2mon
100%, my bank thankfully doesn't tick that box, but if it did I wouldn't think twice about dropping the app. Freedom is more important.
1
d-RLY? - 2mon
Would be nice, but I imagine that Samsung would both need to actually be impacted in an meaningful way with their store, and find some way to prevent Play Services (which they have to meet requirements to be able to load on their devices) from just nope-ing non-registered apps. Both of which I seriously doubt would happen.
They have already been working pretty close with Google on things that removed their actual Tizen OS from stuff like their watches in favor of merging their code into Android Wear OS. Would also guess that they might just work something out to either force apps on their store to be signed by Samsung and cleared by Google. Or that they just require apps on their store to only be listed after registering with Google. Not like Samsung really cares about supporting side-loading if the apps aren't in their (or Google's) store.
Sadly I think only a OEM like Samsung would have the massive levels of hardware sales and money for making a real fight against Google. F-Droid and other alt-stores or projects lack both and are easy to ignore. If Samsung were to be actually concerned about this, then I think we would have already seen them filing lawsuits and pushing posts/news articles condemning Google's plans like F-Droid keeps doing (aside from lawsuits due to money).
1
Ferk - 1mon
You are probably right.. it's just one hope I had, I'm not expecting it to happen, but I'll be hopeful until the end.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
2
d-RLY? - 1mon
Nothing wrong with finding small hopes here and there where you can. I too had briefly thought about Samsung's store (I have an S24 Ultra, Tab S8+, and my old S20+) maybe being large and known enough by more users than F-Droid. But their lack of press releases pushing back on Google was what told me enough. If Samsung's store was actively used more than the Play Store on their phones (and had enough really popular apps that weren't also on the Play Store), then it would at least be something.
Sadly even if Samsung's store is able to somehow get a pass by Google, I highly doubt that the devs of apps that are only on F-Droid would list them on there. And would still only help Samsung devices (though I know I would start using Samsung's store a lot more if those devs did list them on there). Though I might find reasons to use my S20+ for some apps that I like having but don't use daily, and my tablet is on Android 15 so it will be used for stuff I use more often (never thought I would be excited for it to not get major updates).
The main actively used daily app that I am dreading losing (due to the current dev not planning to ever list their active fork on Play Store) is SyncThing-Fork on my Android devices (use different SyncThing apps for PC/Steam Deck). It has been the only multi-platform sync program that actually works correctly for my password vault on my Android devices. Though it is possible that the dev might get it whitelisted, but I am not going to hold my breath. As the main dilemma on a per app level is that the more apps that fall in line ends up supporting Google's actions, but at the same time not getting whitelisted means just going away (at least on fully updated Android 16+ devices).
1
artyom - 2mon
There are many other "uncertified" ROMs.
1
cardfire @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
And the bootloader is now locked down across Samsung's ecosystem, as of this year. Sucks.
If you move to using an unsecured "chinaphone" as an alternative to the big three handset vendors, then it's unlikely they are target devices for the myriad of uncertified ROM's.
I think we are going to need software solutions that can run on major Androdis distributions across the variety of hardware.
I think we're going to need something like UTM or Docker (virtualization or containerization) for running our unsigned Android apps and services, and I don't know how feasible it will be.
4
3abas @lemmy.world - 2mon
If you move to using an unsecured "chinaphone" as an alternative to the big three handset vendors, then it's unlikely they are target devices for the myriad of uncertified ROM's.
Not following your logic here... With the mainstream devices now locked, "the myriad of uncertified ROMs" will necessarily shift to the remaining unlocked phones, or die out.
I think a viable future is owning two devices, one "certified" to access your banking and work apps, and one running GrapheneOS for your private life.
3
cardfire @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
ROMs rarely work as one-size-fits-all-devices, yeah?
I only know of four smartphone categories of phones that are really available in the markets around the world today, en masse.
The big tentpole phones available from Samsung, Google, Moto, and maybe two other players.
Boutique devices from vendors like Nothing and Fairphone with limited reach to global markets (like, being Euro only, or being only distributed in markets that can buy into they ideology, etc). Nearly all of them prices or is MOST humans' reach.
Chinaphones. A mix of fly-by-night brands with ghost shifts in factories that make many varieties of phones with other people's designs, but have extremely limited first party support and probably zero ROM support from the global community ... And then the handful of tech markings like Xiami, HTC, Huawei, and anyone else that bends the knee to the CCP. Virtually no NA market penetration in this decade, and tremendous barrier for entry, for most of the Western world. Also, security issues galore.
iPhones.
All that to say, I don't think a more featured OS existed it's the way forward, with people all jockeying to make new ROM's for everyone to NOT be able to run on their phones.
I'm hopeful folks smarter than I will be able to come in about the potential for sandboxes in it phones with their own capacity for running unsigned apps, like a virtualization platform.
1
James R Kirk - 2mon
I don't have time today
11
comrade_twisty @feddit.org - 2mon
Ok, I’ll extend your deadline til Monday then. ;)
20
Evotech @lemmy.world - 2mon
Except for stuff you really need like online banking, tap payments and digital ids
8
AnyOldName3 - 2mon
Plenty of bank apps work just fine. None of the ones I've tried had problems, except Santander, which works perfectly after changing a setting.
6
Evotech @lemmy.world - 2mon
Not here in Norway. You need BankID which is an app that well, requires a lot of stuff.
5
bluemoon - 2mon
get the physical button-device sent to you by ypur bank
1
Zetta @mander.xyz - 2mon
All my banking apps and credit card apps have worked flawlessly on Graphene OS. You're correct that tap to pay doesn't work, which is a bummer. But that is just Google spyware as well, honestly.
I heard about this a while ago, but I remember the GrapheneOS team talking about suing Google if they didn't allow them to pass play integrity checks like they should be able to, but Google just doesn't let them. That's the only reason tap to pay doesn't work and some baking apps have issues, its Google purposefully limiting graphene OS so they have a competitive edge somewhere.
6
Evotech @lemmy.world - 2mon
Sadly not the case here.
1
Neo @lemmy.sdf.org - 2mon
Personally I don't need or want any of those things on my phone.
4
manuallybreathing - 2mon
You can do online banking via a browser, it's clunky but you generally just need to be more prepared
3
Evotech @lemmy.world - 2mon
Yeah, but over here you pretty much forced to use aome sort of mobile 2fa
1
jabjoe @feddit.uk - 2mon
No they work. It's not like LineageOS. Both Bank apps I now need, work on GrapheneOS but did not on LineageOS. It is my compromise without being compromised.
3
Auli @lemmy.ca - 2mon
Ok what about my tags? What about notifying me if tags are following me what about tsp to pay what about satellite messaging.
3
null_dot @lemmy.dbzer0.com - 2mon
Manageable.
2
z3rOR0ne - 2mon
Even on GrapheneOS, sure it uses a sandboxed Google Play Store, which is obviously great for users, but the developers of Android apps still have to hand over their personal data to Google specifically as this new decree from the Lords of the Google fiefdom entails.
Because FOSS developers rightly value their personal privacy, this decree effectively kills incentive for FOSS developers to continue making and maintaining apps for Android. Running GrapheneOS doesn't circumvent this.
It's like I'm saying "I'm hungry" and you say "Go for a run, it's healthy for you." I mean... it's true that running is healthy... but the act of running doesn't solve the problem of me being hungry...
2
Captain Beyond - 2mon
As I understand it the sandboxed google apps are entirely optional. You can go completely free with GrapheneOS just like with LineageOS.
9
jkYkM7a - 2mon
Too, you can shove Google into its own separate User from everything else and keep it locked down in an always on VPN or the like. You don't owe it the primary user on your phone. You can even keep that user shutdown such that none of it runs until you explicitly switch over and run it.
GrapheneOS is pretty dang impressive.
4
comrade_twisty @feddit.org - 2mon
I use FOSS apps for everything, I only have one special user profile with google play store for my stupid bank and credit card.
For everything else there are alternatives that don’t need google play.
4
Chulk - 2mon
I think you're missing the point. You say you use FOSS apps for everything. Do you download them from F-Droid?
From the article:
The future of this elegant and proven system was put in jeopardy last month, when Google unilaterally decreed that Android developers everywhere in the world are going to be required to register centrally with Google. In addition to demanding payment of a registration fee and agreement to their (non-negotiable and ever-changing) terms and conditions, Google will also require the uploading of personally identifying documents, including government ID, by the authors of the software, as well as enumerating all the unique “application identifiers” for every app that is to be distributed by the registered developer.
The F-Droid project cannot require that developers register their apps through Google, but at the same time, we cannot “take over” the application identifiers for the open-source apps we distribute, as that would effectively seize exclusive distribution rights to those applications.
If it were to be put into effect, the developer registration decree will end the F-Droid project and other free/open-source app distribution sources as we know them today, and the world will be deprived of the safety and security of the catalog of thousands of apps that can be trusted and verified by any and all. F-Droid’s myriad users will be left adrift, with no means to install — or even update their existing installed — applications. (How many F-Droid users are there, exactly? We don’t know, because we don’t track users or have any registration: “No user accounts, by design”)
2
comrade_twisty @feddit.org - 2mon
I get my apps through Obtainium. I usually find the developers pages where they publish source code and the apk and then add them to Obtainium and install from there and let it manage the updates.
Most of the apps I use are also available on f-droid and some probably have play store versions as well.
There's nothing set in stone yet. Google just committed to doing it is all that's happened so far. But the response against it has been pretty heavy and we'll see how it goes. We have to speak up right now and organize our communities like this post is doing.
25
null_dot @lemmy.dbzer0.com - 2mon
LOL. There's dozens of us here.
11
eleitl @lemmy.zip - 2mon
Don't wait. GOS just works.
-1
NewNewAugustEast @lemmy.zip - 2mon
On one phone. The rest of are shit out of luck because we didn't buy the one phone from the company that is causing the problem in the first place.
34
Captain Beyond - 2mon
They're working with an (unrevealed) major OEM to bring a compatible device to market sometime next year.
Also, this isn't just phones: I am using Fdroid on several TV devices too.
This really, really sucks.
4
krolden - 2mon
Yes, you do. But you're making the wrong one
1
eleitl @lemmy.zip - 2mon
Buy used. The other phone vendors haven't been offering the security hardware GOS needs, so far. It might change soon enough though.
-1
DishonestBirb @lemmy.world - 2mon
This isn't awful advice, but used Pixel prices are vastly out of whack with used prices from just about any other android manufacturer. On Amazon I can currently buy a refurbished Galaxy S25+ for $300 less than a refurbished Pixel 9 Pro XL - when the Pixel is a worse phone by every metric but its ability to run GOS.
Also, in some markets (US I believe? I think its a company called Verizon that does this) Some pixels just cannot be OEM unlocked, at all. So that's also a risk buying used online at least - there's usually not a way to tell if you'd be getting one of those if you live in a market that has this fucked up "feature".
16
Autonomous User - 2mon
Change phones. You're rejecting solutions without offering one.
-8
lightnsfw @reddthat.com - 2mon
Dude, just fuck off. Your solution does not work for everyone. Pixel phones don't even have an SD slot ffs.
8
Autonomous User - 2mon
Get a USB-C memory stick for your phone. Stop acting like this stuff's impossible.
-7
lightnsfw @reddthat.com - 2mon
Get a USB-C memory stick for your phone. Stop acting like this stuff’s impossible.
So it'll take 3 dongles just to bring my music collection with me? That's stupid. I'm not offering solutions because there are none. Phone manufacturers and Google have fucked us. My current phone is 8 years old because there are no good options that have The hardware I want. The only hope is the FOSS community and they decided to back one of the most useless phone models that is made by the biggest offender. Might as well buy an iPhone at this point for all the good it will do.
5
cardfire @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
Ironically, with an iPhone you could at least buy into Test Flight privately-signed-apps.
Anyhow, it took me a couple days to realize the guy that you and I have both been replying to is just a troll. Thanks for explaining your thoughts through this discussion, and try not to be too demoralized by the guy.
2
Autonomous User - 2mon
We don't need 100 million songs on our phones. We can have 10 million songs. Privacy is more important than a stupidly large music collection.
-2
LiveLM - 2mon
You can't even buy a Pixel in Brazil, one of the countries set to receive the change first on Google's roadmap.
Being stuck on a single phone brand is never gonna be the solution.
5
Autonomous User - 2mon
You clearly have internet, so buy it from anywhere in the world. You’ve given zero solutions. It's like want us to give up. I’m not giving up on my privacy.
-10
LiveLM - 2mon
The solution is making noise. Talking to your local regulators, making them know this is an issue worth looking into.
The solution is pushing your government to do their fucking job and regulate these companies so they can't take blatant anti-costumer measures.
I'm not saying GrapheneOS isn't a solution, it absolutely is, what I'm saying is that it isn't the be-all and end-all, nor is it available for everybody, and coming into the comments to say "just buy a pixel duh" is smug as shit, and also missing the forest for the trees.
The solution is stopping Google from rolling out this change so everybody can enjoy the increased privacy sideloaded, FOSS apps bring, not just Graphene users.
Hell, Graphene themselves are suffering from Google's fuckery in relation to security patches and AOSP. (Image, Original Link)
Getting Google in a big antitrust lawsuit so they'll stop being actively hostile to projects built on top of Android would be very beneficial to Graphene, don't you think?
Wanna talk demoralizing? How about hearing "just buy a pixel and install GOS" on every thread on this topic completely ignoring whole countries where this isn't exactly feasible?
And when you try to point that out you get the most dismissive answer ever completely ignoring import taxes and a zillion other factors that make even used Pixels cost more than brand new phones that are head and shoulders above them specs wise?
Demoralizing you? Be so for real dude. You really think I'm part of a psyop trying to make you give up your OS? Rest easy, I won't reach thru the screen and snatch your phone.
Just know Graphene needs no negative marketing. If every user walks around talking like this about the project they'll have plenty already.
4
cardfire @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
Thanks for spelling out all of this.
I was you to know the I read every word of it.
The guy we both were responding to managed to waste an hour of my own day with back-and-forth so I figured it was worth seeing how others had torn apart the nonsense, and while I knew the issues in a theory level you explaining Brazil's ecosystem was an excellent illustration I learn from.
Good luck out there. May we someday both learn to evade feeding the trolls.
3
Autonomous User - 2mon
The solution is pushing your government to do their fucking job and regulate these companies so they can't take blatant anti-costumer measures.
Now you're giving a solution. Led with that.
-3
NewNewAugustEast @lemmy.zip - 2mon
Uh huh. And the devices that are not phones?
And saying just change your phone, much easier said than done isn't it?
My actions.... Piss off.
2
Autonomous User - 2mon
Computers don't need Android.
-1
NewNewAugustEast @lemmy.zip - 2mon
For fucks sake: my tablet, my android tv, a firestick....
3
Autonomous User - 2mon
Computers can output to televisions and a tablet computer is a type of computer. You’ve given zero solutions. It's like want us to give up. I’m not giving up on my privacy.
-2
cardfire @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
This isn't a scalable solution. There aren't enough affordable, used Pixels for everyone in the ecosystem to adopt between now and the Goo-lag.
15
eleitl @lemmy.zip - 2mon
Alternative ROM market is fringe de la fringe, so there's sufficient used hardware available. I bought my 7a for 320 eur new and my tablet for 400 eur new though, so the Google tax (or, GOS tax, rather) was moderate.
4
jkYkM7a - 2mon
One con, too, is that Graphene drops support when Google does, limiting the options around buying quite older models and running them for a long time to keep price low.
I still appreciate GrapheneOS and understand why they drop support, but it is definitely a con compared to other ROMs which trend towards extending support longer.
3
Autonomous User - 2mon
At least they're trying.
0
cardfire @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
It's not a "solution" if it doesn't solve for most of us. Likely you and I both need to federate with others for results because I'm honestly not a qualified software developer but ...
Modern flagship phones have more than enough resources to run non-gaming app's within some other container or even with full virtualization or, worst case scenario, emulation. We desperately need folks to figure out porting Dockerlike platform tools and making them accessible for normies like me.
If we can run an entire Windows environment and, separately, if we can run Hades II on a yesteryear Samsung, we should be able to get a sufficiently sandboxed environment together that's qualified to run the weather apps and calculator apps I run on FDroid.
Because I'll be god-damned if I'm going to entrust Google's calculator app with my contacts and phone status permissions.
Not to say I'm entitled to any of their labor but I would join a crowdfunding program in a heartbeat.
5
Autonomous User - 2mon
If you can't buy a phone should you be gambling on crowd funding.
-2
cardfire @sh.itjust.works - 2mon
I carry an S22 (with no Google services allowed on it) and an S25. I could buy any flagship phone in cash and not blink. Most folks around you and me don't have this kind of privilege.
I'm fine.
I'm saying that we can't ask or expect everyone to have the means to do so, AND that tellibg all of them to buy Pixels to fund the very company that is fucking everyone over, in hopes they leave the bootloader for those phones unlocked indefinitely, is basically just complying in advance.
While you're busy insulting me and others, I seriously think we need a campaign to empower devs because the solutions are going to have to come from software, and that takes real people's labor, talent and time. That is solely what I'm advocating for.
This is your community. It rises or falls with how we treat each other. How can you and I encourage each other, today?
5
Autonomous User - 2mon
I seriously think we need a campaign to empower devs because the solutions are going to have to come from software, and that takes real people's labor, talent and time. That is solely what I'm advocating for.
Great, agreed. Wish more led with this.
-1
nieminen @lemmy.world - 2mon
I honestly didn't realize how the fdroid deployment worked, and now I'm gonna be way less skeptical of apps I see there.
45
मुक्त - 2mon
I do not go to Google play until apps on f-droid prove inadequate for my usage.
22
TheCynicalSaint [they/them, he/him] - 2mon
Can one just remove GSF and bypass this? Or is it something going to be built into Android going forward? Genuinely curious.
5
brucethemoose @lemmy.world - 2mon
I am not on Android now, but…
…Can folks not just dual-boot?
Like, keep a stock partition to make Play Store apps happy, and a “main” GraphemeOS boot option or whatever.
3
ChaosSpectre @lemmy.zip - 2mon
To my knowledge no. Theres also the issue of hardware. For example, I stupidly gave samsung another chance about 3 or so years ago, and you basically cannot put another OS on their devices without bricking them.
ooli3 in privacy
F-Droid and Google's Developer Registration Decree | F-Droid - Free and Open Source Android App Repository
https://f-droid.org/2025/09/29/google-developer-registration-decree.htmlThis is something the EU should really regulate, unfortunately they are busy regulating oat
milkdrink and veggieburgers.I contacted the EU DMA team a while back. Part of the response:
So at least some part of the bureaucracy are aware of it.
That’s the copy pasta I got, too!
Same
The thing I don't understand about any of this, is why can't you comment on ongoing dialogues with the gatekeepers?
I understand the basic tenants of keeping the discussion closed until official statements can be prepared, to prevent the press and the public from going off half cocked. That makes sense for private matters.
This is not private. I can't understand what is the point of negotiating law for people if they can't even see the ongoing process?
The EU hasn't even been able to stop Apple from doing this shit.
The EU is actively preventing their own people from leaving the Google ecosystem with the Play Integrity API in their own apps.
I'm confused why so many open source developers think that the EU is going to be the foster parents of FOSS communities
There's a real effort in some EU countries to fund FOSS projects to get out from under US dominated tech.
It's because they did a thing with USB once
Pretty sure the EU was designed to serve the interests of carnists and other capitalists.
Considering Google and Apple both donate to Trump, we really need an alternative: Linux mobile OS. A linux OS that can be installed on a range of phones, from cheap to more expensiove. Just buy the phone and install the OS, as you do on PCs.
Good linux mobile OSs already exist, but phones' hardware is still proprietary and messed up, so it is very difficult to provide a good hardware support for those mobile OSs
Yes, the bottleneck isn't software, it's hardware. We need phones with unlocked bootloaders
Good is used looy here.
list on wikipedia of open source hardware phones
handheld linux device
When will F-Droid stop working on stock android?
Try Graphene today. IT WORKS
Samsung s22 and s25, checking in. Graphene won't be viable for the vast, overwhelming majority of Android users today or in the coming seasons.
I hope people figure out some kind of virtualization/docker-containerization solution to the coming Goo-lag.
I'm still holding some hope that maybe Samsung's flavor of the OS won't have the restriction of requiring Google keys. Specially considering that Samsung has its own "Galaxy Store" with app submissions controlled by them, not Google.
Though it's possible they might simply extend the signatures accepted to include also the ones signed by them ^^U ..still it would give them a competitive edge to remove the restriction so they might be incentivized to do it.
I'm hopeful that the hackers will win. I will never underestimate the power of motivated, scorned engineers.
I mean, you can hack/root most devices, even right now. I expect that's not changing.
Probably by removing some google service or some other gimmick it can be bypassed
If they want a lot of play store banking apps + other things that opt into play protect to work they'll need to add the signature verification requirement.
Will the banks in Korea, EU and many other areas where Samsung phones are very common keep that restriction if it meant alienating that many users? I doubt it. That's why I think the support of a big player on this would be a killing move.
Also I'm not 100% convinced that it's impossible to have some verification without it depending on this one change.
That's a really good point, basically throw their weight around a bit eh?
I'm even willing to use the web apps or webpages for banking, if the browsers can make the handshakes. I'll forfeit using the bank first party apps, if their websites are full featured.
100%, my bank thankfully doesn't tick that box, but if it did I wouldn't think twice about dropping the app. Freedom is more important.
Would be nice, but I imagine that Samsung would both need to actually be impacted in an meaningful way with their store, and find some way to prevent Play Services (which they have to meet requirements to be able to load on their devices) from just nope-ing non-registered apps. Both of which I seriously doubt would happen.
They have already been working pretty close with Google on things that removed their actual Tizen OS from stuff like their watches in favor of merging their code into Android Wear OS. Would also guess that they might just work something out to either force apps on their store to be signed by Samsung and cleared by Google. Or that they just require apps on their store to only be listed after registering with Google. Not like Samsung really cares about supporting side-loading if the apps aren't in their (or Google's) store.
Sadly I think only a OEM like Samsung would have the massive levels of hardware sales and money for making a real fight against Google. F-Droid and other alt-stores or projects lack both and are easy to ignore. If Samsung were to be actually concerned about this, then I think we would have already seen them filing lawsuits and pushing posts/news articles condemning Google's plans like F-Droid keeps doing (aside from lawsuits due to money).
You are probably right.. it's just one hope I had, I'm not expecting it to happen, but I'll be hopeful until the end.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
Nothing wrong with finding small hopes here and there where you can. I too had briefly thought about Samsung's store (I have an S24 Ultra, Tab S8+, and my old S20+) maybe being large and known enough by more users than F-Droid. But their lack of press releases pushing back on Google was what told me enough. If Samsung's store was actively used more than the Play Store on their phones (and had enough really popular apps that weren't also on the Play Store), then it would at least be something.
Sadly even if Samsung's store is able to somehow get a pass by Google, I highly doubt that the devs of apps that are only on F-Droid would list them on there. And would still only help Samsung devices (though I know I would start using Samsung's store a lot more if those devs did list them on there). Though I might find reasons to use my S20+ for some apps that I like having but don't use daily, and my tablet is on Android 15 so it will be used for stuff I use more often (never thought I would be excited for it to not get major updates).
The main actively used daily app that I am dreading losing (due to the current dev not planning to ever list their active fork on Play Store) is SyncThing-Fork on my Android devices (use different SyncThing apps for PC/Steam Deck). It has been the only multi-platform sync program that actually works correctly for my password vault on my Android devices. Though it is possible that the dev might get it whitelisted, but I am not going to hold my breath. As the main dilemma on a per app level is that the more apps that fall in line ends up supporting Google's actions, but at the same time not getting whitelisted means just going away (at least on fully updated Android 16+ devices).
There are many other "uncertified" ROMs.
And the bootloader is now locked down across Samsung's ecosystem, as of this year. Sucks.
If you move to using an unsecured "chinaphone" as an alternative to the big three handset vendors, then it's unlikely they are target devices for the myriad of uncertified ROM's.
I think we are going to need software solutions that can run on major Androdis distributions across the variety of hardware.
I think we're going to need something like UTM or Docker (virtualization or containerization) for running our unsigned Android apps and services, and I don't know how feasible it will be.
Not following your logic here... With the mainstream devices now locked, "the myriad of uncertified ROMs" will necessarily shift to the remaining unlocked phones, or die out.
I think a viable future is owning two devices, one "certified" to access your banking and work apps, and one running GrapheneOS for your private life.
ROMs rarely work as one-size-fits-all-devices, yeah?
I only know of four smartphone categories of phones that are really available in the markets around the world today, en masse.
The big tentpole phones available from Samsung, Google, Moto, and maybe two other players.
Boutique devices from vendors like Nothing and Fairphone with limited reach to global markets (like, being Euro only, or being only distributed in markets that can buy into they ideology, etc). Nearly all of them prices or is MOST humans' reach.
Chinaphones. A mix of fly-by-night brands with ghost shifts in factories that make many varieties of phones with other people's designs, but have extremely limited first party support and probably zero ROM support from the global community ... And then the handful of tech markings like Xiami, HTC, Huawei, and anyone else that bends the knee to the CCP. Virtually no NA market penetration in this decade, and tremendous barrier for entry, for most of the Western world. Also, security issues galore.
iPhones.
All that to say, I don't think a more featured OS existed it's the way forward, with people all jockeying to make new ROM's for everyone to NOT be able to run on their phones.
I'm hopeful folks smarter than I will be able to come in about the potential for sandboxes in it phones with their own capacity for running unsigned apps, like a virtualization platform.
I don't have time today
Ok, I’ll extend your deadline til Monday then. ;)
Except for stuff you really need like online banking, tap payments and digital ids
Plenty of bank apps work just fine. None of the ones I've tried had problems, except Santander, which works perfectly after changing a setting.
Not here in Norway. You need BankID which is an app that well, requires a lot of stuff.
get the physical button-device sent to you by ypur bank
All my banking apps and credit card apps have worked flawlessly on Graphene OS. You're correct that tap to pay doesn't work, which is a bummer. But that is just Google spyware as well, honestly.
I heard about this a while ago, but I remember the GrapheneOS team talking about suing Google if they didn't allow them to pass play integrity checks like they should be able to, but Google just doesn't let them. That's the only reason tap to pay doesn't work and some baking apps have issues, its Google purposefully limiting graphene OS so they have a competitive edge somewhere.
Sadly not the case here.
Personally I don't need or want any of those things on my phone.
You can do online banking via a browser, it's clunky but you generally just need to be more prepared
Yeah, but over here you pretty much forced to use aome sort of mobile 2fa
No they work. It's not like LineageOS. Both Bank apps I now need, work on GrapheneOS but did not on LineageOS. It is my compromise without being compromised.
Ok what about my tags? What about notifying me if tags are following me what about tsp to pay what about satellite messaging.
Manageable.
Even on GrapheneOS, sure it uses a sandboxed Google Play Store, which is obviously great for users, but the developers of Android apps still have to hand over their personal data to Google specifically as this new decree from the Lords of the Google fiefdom entails.
Because FOSS developers rightly value their personal privacy, this decree effectively kills incentive for FOSS developers to continue making and maintaining apps for Android. Running GrapheneOS doesn't circumvent this.
It's like I'm saying "I'm hungry" and you say "Go for a run, it's healthy for you." I mean... it's true that running is healthy... but the act of running doesn't solve the problem of me being hungry...
As I understand it the sandboxed google apps are entirely optional. You can go completely free with GrapheneOS just like with LineageOS.
Too, you can shove Google into its own separate User from everything else and keep it locked down in an always on VPN or the like. You don't owe it the primary user on your phone. You can even keep that user shutdown such that none of it runs until you explicitly switch over and run it.
GrapheneOS is pretty dang impressive.
I use FOSS apps for everything, I only have one special user profile with google play store for my stupid bank and credit card.
For everything else there are alternatives that don’t need google play.
I think you're missing the point. You say you use FOSS apps for everything. Do you download them from F-Droid?
From the article:
I get my apps through Obtainium. I usually find the developers pages where they publish source code and the apk and then add them to Obtainium and install from there and let it manage the updates.
Most of the apps I use are also available on f-droid and some probably have play store versions as well.
This is how I do it too
F-Droid libre software, self-hostable, unstoppable.
Wrong, sandboxed Google Play is not required.
Depends on your location. There is a timeline table here:
https://developer.android.com/developer-verification/guides
I see September 2026 as a tough date.
There's nothing set in stone yet. Google just committed to doing it is all that's happened so far. But the response against it has been pretty heavy and we'll see how it goes. We have to speak up right now and organize our communities like this post is doing.
LOL. There's dozens of us here.
Don't wait. GOS just works.
On one phone. The rest of are shit out of luck because we didn't buy the one phone from the company that is causing the problem in the first place.
They're working with an (unrevealed) major OEM to bring a compatible device to market sometime next year.
https://old.reddit.com/r/GrapheneOS/comments/1o32gpg/blackberry_phones/nivsx0k/
Here's hoping its a device with an SD card slot and optionally a 3.5 jack. The Pixel's lack of those is the one reason I haven't made the switch.
Apparently not. But it will later come to other cheaper offerings of the company which will probably have a headphone connector.
You can always buy used!
Where does one find a used phone? I would have no idea.
More importantly, I don't want a used phone, OR to have to spend more money.
Ebay
Yuck. Nope. A used phone from a rando? No way in hell. Usb likely worn out, battery half the life of new... No.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266812035484
Then accept what they're doing
I dont really have a choice do I?
Also, this isn't just phones: I am using Fdroid on several TV devices too.
This really, really sucks.
Yes, you do. But you're making the wrong one
Buy used. The other phone vendors haven't been offering the security hardware GOS needs, so far. It might change soon enough though.
This isn't awful advice, but used Pixel prices are vastly out of whack with used prices from just about any other android manufacturer. On Amazon I can currently buy a refurbished Galaxy S25+ for $300 less than a refurbished Pixel 9 Pro XL - when the Pixel is a worse phone by every metric but its ability to run GOS.
Also, in some markets (US I believe? I think its a company called Verizon that does this) Some pixels just cannot be OEM unlocked, at all. So that's also a risk buying used online at least - there's usually not a way to tell if you'd be getting one of those if you live in a market that has this fucked up "feature".
Change phones. You're rejecting solutions without offering one.
Dude, just fuck off. Your solution does not work for everyone. Pixel phones don't even have an SD slot ffs.
Get a USB-C memory stick for your phone. Stop acting like this stuff's impossible.
So it'll take 3 dongles just to bring my music collection with me? That's stupid. I'm not offering solutions because there are none. Phone manufacturers and Google have fucked us. My current phone is 8 years old because there are no good options that have The hardware I want. The only hope is the FOSS community and they decided to back one of the most useless phone models that is made by the biggest offender. Might as well buy an iPhone at this point for all the good it will do.
Ironically, with an iPhone you could at least buy into Test Flight privately-signed-apps.
Anyhow, it took me a couple days to realize the guy that you and I have both been replying to is just a troll. Thanks for explaining your thoughts through this discussion, and try not to be too demoralized by the guy.
We don't need 100 million songs on our phones. We can have 10 million songs. Privacy is more important than a stupidly large music collection.
You can't even buy a Pixel in Brazil, one of the countries set to receive the change first on Google's roadmap.
Being stuck on a single phone brand is never gonna be the solution.
You clearly have internet, so buy it from anywhere in the world. You’ve given zero solutions. It's like want us to give up. I’m not giving up on my privacy.
The solution is making noise. Talking to your local regulators, making them know this is an issue worth looking into.
The solution is pushing your government to do their fucking job and regulate these companies so they can't take blatant anti-costumer measures.
I'm not saying GrapheneOS isn't a solution, it absolutely is, what I'm saying is that it isn't the be-all and end-all, nor is it available for everybody, and coming into the comments to say "just buy a pixel duh" is smug as shit, and also missing the forest for the trees.
The solution is stopping Google from rolling out this change so everybody can enjoy the increased privacy sideloaded, FOSS apps bring, not just Graphene users.
Hell, Graphene themselves are suffering from Google's fuckery in relation to security patches and AOSP. (Image, Original Link)
Getting Google in a big antitrust lawsuit so they'll stop being actively hostile to projects built on top of Android would be very beneficial to Graphene, don't you think?
Wanna talk demoralizing? How about hearing "just buy a pixel and install GOS" on every thread on this topic completely ignoring whole countries where this isn't exactly feasible?
And when you try to point that out you get the most dismissive answer ever completely ignoring import taxes and a zillion other factors that make even used Pixels cost more than brand new phones that are head and shoulders above them specs wise?
Demoralizing you? Be so for real dude. You really think I'm part of a psyop trying to make you give up your OS? Rest easy, I won't reach thru the screen and snatch your phone.
Just know Graphene needs no negative marketing. If every user walks around talking like this about the project they'll have plenty already.
Thanks for spelling out all of this. I was you to know the I read every word of it.
The guy we both were responding to managed to waste an hour of my own day with back-and-forth so I figured it was worth seeing how others had torn apart the nonsense, and while I knew the issues in a theory level you explaining Brazil's ecosystem was an excellent illustration I learn from.
Good luck out there. May we someday both learn to evade feeding the trolls.
Now you're giving a solution. Led with that.
Uh huh. And the devices that are not phones?
And saying just change your phone, much easier said than done isn't it?
My actions.... Piss off.
Computers don't need Android.
For fucks sake: my tablet, my android tv, a firestick....
Computers can output to televisions and a tablet computer is a type of computer. You’ve given zero solutions. It's like want us to give up. I’m not giving up on my privacy.
This isn't a scalable solution. There aren't enough affordable, used Pixels for everyone in the ecosystem to adopt between now and the Goo-lag.
Alternative ROM market is fringe de la fringe, so there's sufficient used hardware available. I bought my 7a for 320 eur new and my tablet for 400 eur new though, so the Google tax (or, GOS tax, rather) was moderate.
One con, too, is that Graphene drops support when Google does, limiting the options around buying quite older models and running them for a long time to keep price low.
I still appreciate GrapheneOS and understand why they drop support, but it is definitely a con compared to other ROMs which trend towards extending support longer.
At least they're trying.
It's not a "solution" if it doesn't solve for most of us. Likely you and I both need to federate with others for results because I'm honestly not a qualified software developer but ...
Modern flagship phones have more than enough resources to run non-gaming app's within some other container or even with full virtualization or, worst case scenario, emulation. We desperately need folks to figure out porting Dockerlike platform tools and making them accessible for normies like me.
If we can run an entire Windows environment and, separately, if we can run Hades II on a yesteryear Samsung, we should be able to get a sufficiently sandboxed environment together that's qualified to run the weather apps and calculator apps I run on FDroid.
Because I'll be god-damned if I'm going to entrust Google's calculator app with my contacts and phone status permissions.
Not to say I'm entitled to any of their labor but I would join a crowdfunding program in a heartbeat.
If you can't buy a phone should you be gambling on crowd funding.
I carry an S22 (with no Google services allowed on it) and an S25. I could buy any flagship phone in cash and not blink. Most folks around you and me don't have this kind of privilege.
I'm fine.
I'm saying that we can't ask or expect everyone to have the means to do so, AND that tellibg all of them to buy Pixels to fund the very company that is fucking everyone over, in hopes they leave the bootloader for those phones unlocked indefinitely, is basically just complying in advance.
While you're busy insulting me and others, I seriously think we need a campaign to empower devs because the solutions are going to have to come from software, and that takes real people's labor, talent and time. That is solely what I'm advocating for.
This is your community. It rises or falls with how we treat each other. How can you and I encourage each other, today?
Great, agreed. Wish more led with this.
I honestly didn't realize how the fdroid deployment worked, and now I'm gonna be way less skeptical of apps I see there.
I do not go to Google play until apps on f-droid prove inadequate for my usage.
Can one just remove GSF and bypass this? Or is it something going to be built into Android going forward? Genuinely curious.
I am not on Android now, but…
…Can folks not just dual-boot?
Like, keep a stock partition to make Play Store apps happy, and a “main” GraphemeOS boot option or whatever.
To my knowledge no. Theres also the issue of hardware. For example, I stupidly gave samsung another chance about 3 or so years ago, and you basically cannot put another OS on their devices without bricking them.