Too many people would change their minds based on what the sign says.
Does you reaction change if the sign read: "Black Lives Matter" or if it read "Back the Blue"?
Or one that says "Trans women are women" vs "trans women aren't women"?
Or "pineapple on pizza is ok" vs "pinapple on pizza is the work of the devil"?
52
SneakyWeasel @lemmy.world - 2.4yr
Honestly, the first thing that I thought about was what if the sign had a slur word. Sure freedom of speech means say what you wanna say, that doesn't mean people aren't gonna sock you in the face.
21
Robaque @feddit.it - 2.4yr
The problem with free speech is probs that what people are really fighting over is who gets to control and define what "free" speech is. Only in an anarchist society would free speech really be as you described - say what you want, but be prepared to face the consequences of your words (and actions). Without the protection of government and socio/economic hierarchies, bigots wouldn't feel quite as invincible while they spew hate and oppression.
2
koorool @feddit.de - 2.4yr
We must not be tolerant to intolerance is the basis for me.
Fantastic read on this. Reader view worked for me.
6
button_masher - 2.4yr
Thank you for that. Really informative and a fun read.
3
NightAuthor @beehaw.org - 2.4yr
I think I’m still of the mind that “intent to incite violence” is the line. And even that can be crossed when the government needs to be overthrown.
But I could be convinced otherwise
6
PowerCrazy - 2.4yr
Violence is extremely useful and will be the only tool you have left if you want to stop climate change or protect yourself+your social network from the effects of capitalism.
1
nik282000 - 2.4yr
I think climate change is beyond the point of violence. The number of people, corporations, and equipment involved in the production and consumption of fossil fuels is beyond what non-military action could take on. Not to mention you have to get people to filter between useful petrochemical products (medical supplies) and problematic ones (god damned plastic bags, mylar balloons, fuckin solo cups) and not just arson us back to the stone-age.
Things are gonna suck for a long time before they get better.
1
hglman - 2.4yr
You're going to get violence anyway you want it to go down.
1
nik282000 - 2.4yr
Ideally political leaders will get the cocks out of their asses and realize that their children and grand-children WILL suffer through the most unusual chapter in human history. For sure it wont be the what most people go through but there will be a noticeable reduction the the quality of life for everyone.
1
hglman - 2.4yr
Political leaders, especially in the anglosphere, have no interests beyond self-enrichment.
Note, Mr Fry is a gay man and has championed gay rights. His very existence is offensive to backwards conservatives. This quote often gets shared without any context.
29
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
Let's replace the word with "N*****" and see if you still feel clever
12
Numuruzero @lemmy.dbzer0.com - 2.4yr
The point still stands, in the minutiae you're addressing. People post absolute garbage opinions on a regular basis, and are free to do so, as long as their platform allows it. This doesn't go into the consequences of pissing off a lot of people, but you're still free to do it.
12
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
The point does not stand. I don't think any set of rules that sees "N***** N***** N*****" as acceptable speech should be respected, nor any person who thinks that way.
9
Numuruzero @lemmy.dbzer0.com - 2.4yr
I agree with the spirit, but I disagree with what the point of the comic is - it's not trying to make a point about respect per se, just about freedom of speech. Even if you wouldn't be a part of a community that allows hate speech, if you encounter it "in the street" so to speak - there's just nothing you can do.
8
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
I know it's saying that, and I think that's bullshit.
1
MrMonkey @lemm.ee - 2.4yr
bullshit how?
2
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
I think it's a defeatist attitude that allows hatred to fester.
4
IIIIII @sh.itjust.works - 2.4yr
So you’d rather control what people can say irl? Freedom has its consequences and some people are just dicks
0
CaptainEffort @lemmy.world - 2.4yr
Not a single person said it was “acceptable speech”.
0
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
The mentioned "platform" implies it is acceptable by allowing it
0
CaptainEffort @lemmy.world - 2.4yr
I disagree. Something being allowed doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.
I mean there are loads of bigoted comments all over Twitter and Facebook, and I wouldn’t call any of those “acceptable” despite technically being allowed.
0
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
Why would you allow unacceptable content? That's an implicit endorsement.
0
CaptainEffort @lemmy.world - 2.4yr
Lmao what? Saying that people should be allowed to speak their minds isn’t the same as agreeing with everything everyone has to say.
Honestly, you assuming that it’s an “endorsement” speaks much more to your own issues than anything else. Maybe learn that life isn’t so binary - that things can be a little more nuanced.
0
Nalivai @discuss.tchncs.de - 2.4yr
Let's replace some of the words in your comment to "I am a pooopoo head and I eat poopoo", and see how do you feel then. Bet pretty stupid, huh?
Yeah it was the same day as that massive gold heist.
1
OurToothbrush - 2.4yr
Saying good things and saying bad things are different actually
-2
TimewornTraveler @lemm.ee - 2.4yr
but that's not the message of the comic
1
OurToothbrush - 2.4yr
I think you're missing the point. You have to take it in the context it was written in.
-2
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
Um, what?
1
OurToothbrush - 2.4yr
What it says on the tin.
-1
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
Care to elaborate on how it relates to my comment?
2
OurToothbrush - 2.4yr
Defending free speech that says good things is different than defending free speech that is just being racist. The implication of hypocrisy that you're suggesting with your comment doesn't really work unless you view all speech as equivalent, which it self evidently isn't.
-1
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
Defending free speech that says good things is different than defending free speech that is just being racist.
That's kinda the point I'm making, though. This argument is not nuanced enough, because the only standard it sets is that for something to be truly offensive, it must "offend everyone". This is an absurd and impossible standard.
The implication of hypocrisy that you’re suggesting with your comment doesn’t really work unless you view all speech as equivalent, which it self evidently isn’t.
I didn't say anything about hypocrisy. I just said that the argument presented is insufficient.
3
OurToothbrush - 2.4yr
If you include the context it isnt insufficient. It is also a short comic.
-1
R00bot @lemmy.blahaj.zone - 2.4yr
You can't see the difference between "butts" and the n word?
-3
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
The point is, this argument doesn't hold up.
20
Duamerthrax - 2.4yr
Because it's a short comic, it doesn't have the time to go into the nuances. One word has a long history of being used to dehumanize an "other" group and the other just a word for a body part. If body parts offend you as much as racial slurs, you may have your own issues.
3
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
Still missing the point
If this logic can be used to defend race hate, then maybe the logic isn't sound
Also, if the issue is too nuanced for you to convey in a short comic, maybe don't make a short comic about it
-2
Duamerthrax - 2.4yr
If the only argument against something is that it's offensive and they can't rationalize it at all, the argument can be thrown out. That's all the comic is about.
8
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
That's just rationalisation. To me, this comic highlights the absurd logic of bigots and free speech absolutists. "Offensive to everyone" is an impossible standard to meet; bigots are obviously never going to be offended by bigotry, so even hate speech doesn't meet that threshold.
Also, it's never just "butts", and it's never just a single person, so it's a bit of a misrepresentation.
5
Duamerthrax - 2.4yr
Bigots can't rationalize their bigotry. At least not in a way that can't be torn apart. They always end up using circular logic, which is what the comic is address.
I'm "offended" at racism because it creates an unsafe culture for everyone involved. I can cit research about the effects of generational racism leading to higher crime for instance.
They're offended at the sight of black people being able to use the same water fountain as them. They can't tell me why, which is why their argument ends at their "offense" and is the scenario the comic is about.
Also, it’s never just “butts”
I've seen people online get offended at the bumper sticker "Fuck Cancer".
2
R00bot @lemmy.blahaj.zone - 2.4yr
The argument isn't about racial slurs.
-1
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
I'm gonna need you to engage in just a little more abstract thinking for me. I'm not talking about racism either.
Let's try another thing instead: "Got hates fags"
How about: "Jews did 9/11"
It's pretty easy to say "free speech! I can say whatever I like!! I'm not responsible for your hurt feelings!" without any nuance, but speech is a bit more complicated than that.
5
R00bot @lemmy.blahaj.zone - 2.4yr
The cartoon isn't about free speech absolutism. It's just about offensive stuff. All the things you said are hate speech.
0
irmoz @reddthat.com - 2.4yr
It contains the single most popular defence of free speech absolutism
5
R00bot @lemmy.blahaj.zone - 2.4yr
It's from a website called TheDevilsPanties bro. I get where you're coming from but it's clearly about book bannings/conservatives getting upset with content in movies/books/signs/etc. The comic doesn't explicitly say it's excluding hate speech but it shouldn't have to.
-1
darcy - 2.4yr
hey, its freedom to offend, right ?
5
R00bot @lemmy.blahaj.zone - 2.4yr
Hate speech and offensive speech are very different lol
-1
darcy - 2.4yr
where do u draw the line?
(genuine question ,, not advocating hate speech)
4
jarfil - 2.4yr
Hate speech is a call to attack some people.
It may sometimes sound like "just offensive", since it often uses offensive code words to coordinate an attack.
0
TimewornTraveler @lemm.ee - 2.4yr
what year is this, 2015?
12
BroBot9000 @lemmy.world - 2.4yr
That’s hysterical!
Of course they had to lengthen the skirt 😂
10
lightsecond @programming.dev - 2.4yr
What do you mean?
2
pythonoob @programming.dev - 2.4yr
Well you wouldn't wanna be raped now would you /s
0
Rob Bos - 2.4yr
Have always enjoyed your comics, funny story.
4
𝕽𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖎𝖊𝖘𝖙 - 2.4yr
That is an awesome name for a comic, I love it.
4
Lammy @lemmy.world - 2.4yr
Not as offensive as that faux Batman shirt
1
eskimofry @lemmy.world - 2.4yr
You should send a cease and desist. That will rile them up.
JennieBreeden in webcomics
Offensive
I had someone steel this and change “butts” to “Christian” and weirdly enough, lengthen my skirt. Kept the flame boots, but no short skirts.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5125be20-c429-499f-b7c5-7fbb9e96a5dc.jpeg
Sir please don't edge the dog.
The dog has already edged.
~ edge all of the good boys ~
💀 lmao thanks for the new reaction pic
Too many people would change their minds based on what the sign says.
Does you reaction change if the sign read: "Black Lives Matter" or if it read "Back the Blue"?
Or one that says "Trans women are women" vs "trans women aren't women"?
Or "pineapple on pizza is ok" vs "pinapple on pizza is the work of the devil"?
Honestly, the first thing that I thought about was what if the sign had a slur word. Sure freedom of speech means say what you wanna say, that doesn't mean people aren't gonna sock you in the face.
The problem with free speech is probs that what people are really fighting over is who gets to control and define what "free" speech is. Only in an anarchist society would free speech really be as you described - say what you want, but be prepared to face the consequences of your words (and actions). Without the protection of government and socio/economic hierarchies, bigots wouldn't feel quite as invincible while they spew hate and oppression.
We must not be tolerant to intolerance is the basis for me.
Tolerance is not a moral precept, it's a peace treaty
Fantastic read on this. Reader view worked for me.
Thank you for that. Really informative and a fun read.
I think I’m still of the mind that “intent to incite violence” is the line. And even that can be crossed when the government needs to be overthrown.
But I could be convinced otherwise
Violence is extremely useful and will be the only tool you have left if you want to stop climate change or protect yourself+your social network from the effects of capitalism.
I think climate change is beyond the point of violence. The number of people, corporations, and equipment involved in the production and consumption of fossil fuels is beyond what non-military action could take on. Not to mention you have to get people to filter between useful petrochemical products (medical supplies) and problematic ones (god damned plastic bags, mylar balloons, fuckin solo cups) and not just arson us back to the stone-age.
Things are gonna suck for a long time before they get better.
You're going to get violence anyway you want it to go down.
Ideally political leaders will get the cocks out of their asses and realize that their children and grand-children WILL suffer through the most unusual chapter in human history. For sure it wont be the what most people go through but there will be a noticeable reduction the the quality of life for everyone.
Political leaders, especially in the anglosphere, have no interests beyond self-enrichment.
Good things and bad things are different actually
Stephen Fry on being offended.
Note, Mr Fry is a gay man and has championed gay rights. His very existence is offensive to backwards conservatives. This quote often gets shared without any context.
Let's replace the word with "N*****" and see if you still feel clever
The point still stands, in the minutiae you're addressing. People post absolute garbage opinions on a regular basis, and are free to do so, as long as their platform allows it. This doesn't go into the consequences of pissing off a lot of people, but you're still free to do it.
The point does not stand. I don't think any set of rules that sees "N***** N***** N*****" as acceptable speech should be respected, nor any person who thinks that way.
I agree with the spirit, but I disagree with what the point of the comic is - it's not trying to make a point about respect per se, just about freedom of speech. Even if you wouldn't be a part of a community that allows hate speech, if you encounter it "in the street" so to speak - there's just nothing you can do.
I know it's saying that, and I think that's bullshit.
bullshit how?
I think it's a defeatist attitude that allows hatred to fester.
So you’d rather control what people can say irl? Freedom has its consequences and some people are just dicks
Not a single person said it was “acceptable speech”.
The mentioned "platform" implies it is acceptable by allowing it
I disagree. Something being allowed doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.
I mean there are loads of bigoted comments all over Twitter and Facebook, and I wouldn’t call any of those “acceptable” despite technically being allowed.
Why would you allow unacceptable content? That's an implicit endorsement.
Lmao what? Saying that people should be allowed to speak their minds isn’t the same as agreeing with everything everyone has to say.
Honestly, you assuming that it’s an “endorsement” speaks much more to your own issues than anything else. Maybe learn that life isn’t so binary - that things can be a little more nuanced.
Let's replace some of the words in your comment to "I am a pooopoo head and I eat poopoo", and see how do you feel then. Bet pretty stupid, huh?
Excellent rebuttal.
Real life footage of this actually happening, and the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8DJGw3rIwI
Real life footage?
Wow
Yeah it was the same day as that massive gold heist.
Saying good things and saying bad things are different actually
but that's not the message of the comic
I think you're missing the point. You have to take it in the context it was written in.
Um, what?
What it says on the tin.
Care to elaborate on how it relates to my comment?
Defending free speech that says good things is different than defending free speech that is just being racist. The implication of hypocrisy that you're suggesting with your comment doesn't really work unless you view all speech as equivalent, which it self evidently isn't.
That's kinda the point I'm making, though. This argument is not nuanced enough, because the only standard it sets is that for something to be truly offensive, it must "offend everyone". This is an absurd and impossible standard.
I didn't say anything about hypocrisy. I just said that the argument presented is insufficient.
If you include the context it isnt insufficient. It is also a short comic.
You can't see the difference between "butts" and the n word?
The point is, this argument doesn't hold up.
Because it's a short comic, it doesn't have the time to go into the nuances. One word has a long history of being used to dehumanize an "other" group and the other just a word for a body part. If body parts offend you as much as racial slurs, you may have your own issues.
Still missing the point
If this logic can be used to defend race hate, then maybe the logic isn't sound
Also, if the issue is too nuanced for you to convey in a short comic, maybe don't make a short comic about it
If the only argument against something is that it's offensive and they can't rationalize it at all, the argument can be thrown out. That's all the comic is about.
That's just rationalisation. To me, this comic highlights the absurd logic of bigots and free speech absolutists. "Offensive to everyone" is an impossible standard to meet; bigots are obviously never going to be offended by bigotry, so even hate speech doesn't meet that threshold.
Also, it's never just "butts", and it's never just a single person, so it's a bit of a misrepresentation.
Bigots can't rationalize their bigotry. At least not in a way that can't be torn apart. They always end up using circular logic, which is what the comic is address.
I'm "offended" at racism because it creates an unsafe culture for everyone involved. I can cit research about the effects of generational racism leading to higher crime for instance.
They're offended at the sight of black people being able to use the same water fountain as them. They can't tell me why, which is why their argument ends at their "offense" and is the scenario the comic is about.
I've seen people online get offended at the bumper sticker "Fuck Cancer".
The argument isn't about racial slurs.
I'm gonna need you to engage in just a little more abstract thinking for me. I'm not talking about racism either.
Let's try another thing instead: "Got hates fags"
How about: "Jews did 9/11"
It's pretty easy to say "free speech! I can say whatever I like!! I'm not responsible for your hurt feelings!" without any nuance, but speech is a bit more complicated than that.
The cartoon isn't about free speech absolutism. It's just about offensive stuff. All the things you said are hate speech.
It contains the single most popular defence of free speech absolutism
It's from a website called TheDevilsPanties bro. I get where you're coming from but it's clearly about book bannings/conservatives getting upset with content in movies/books/signs/etc. The comic doesn't explicitly say it's excluding hate speech but it shouldn't have to.
hey, its freedom to offend, right ?
Hate speech and offensive speech are very different lol
where do u draw the line?
(genuine question ,, not advocating hate speech)
Hate speech is a call to attack some people.
It may sometimes sound like "just offensive", since it often uses offensive code words to coordinate an attack.
what year is this, 2015?
That’s hysterical!
Of course they had to lengthen the skirt 😂
What do you mean?
Well you wouldn't wanna be raped now would you /s
Have always enjoyed your comics, funny story.
That is an awesome name for a comic, I love it.
Not as offensive as that faux Batman shirt
You should send a cease and desist. That will rile them up.