As posted about recently in !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works and !fediverselore@lemmy.ca it seems that @nutomic@lemmy.ml's stance on transphobia has not changed and his apology only seems to be that he was sorry he got caught and that someone leaked the DM. This is concerning for an admin of Lemmy.ml and the leader of the project.
I don't think this means we should stop using Lemmy, it's open-source and even if they embed donation links, they can be stripped out in our fork. But it does make me wonder if we should consider defederating lemmy.ml on that merit. Since if they hold such views on trans issues, it's very likely they won't have any desire to act on that type of transphobia being expressed on their instance.
I know that Lemmy.ml has and does handle overt transphobia well, but I can't speak to their ability to handle less overt or thinly veiled transphobia, and this incident doesn't inspire much confidence either.
Edit: Since some people haven't seen the original. I decided to include it here. Warning, it contains transphobia, if you don't want to see that, don't open the spoiler.
I'd really like to hear Feedback from Blahaj's local community on this, I'm not as interested in outside opinions here so please try to refrain from top-level commenting if you aren't from lemmy.blahaj.zone (I will ignore them if you comment anyway from a remote instance).
pixeltree - 8mon
Personally, I don't think his shitty views necessarily translate into .ml moderation policy and action, which to me would be the problem that defederation is meant to solve.
That said, I wouldn't mind defed-ing from them in general, as most of my unpleasant interactions in the fediverse have been with .ml users.
Ultimately, I'll back Ada on what she thinks and decides. She's very level headed and strict with other instances as far as blahaj zones mission statement is concerned, and I trust her completely.
80
Stache_ @lemmy.ml - 8mon
Yeah I’m really starting to regret making my Lemmy account with this server. At the time it was just the biggest one and I didn’t know anything about the type of communities they hosted. I tend to stay out of politics, I’m just here for the funny memes man
34
ɯᴉuoʇuɐ - 8mon
There's some dedicated Lemmy migration software, which copies your old subscriptions and probably other settings to your new account. At least, I remember using when I switched from .world to .dbzer0 quite some time ago. So you don't have to hesitate from looking for a different instance to register on.
13
irelephant [he/him]🍭 - 8mon
You can export your settings and communities in settings, and import them on another server.
5
AtariDump @lemmy.world - 8mon
That’s like me and .world
2
Sophienomenal - 8mon
Personally, I have a very poor opinion of nutomic. And yes, he has always been/felt transphobic. He has a history of making massive oversteps to attack people that have differing opinions to his, and overall I believe him to be a threat to the trans community. As for whether we should defederate? I really have no clue. It certainly isn't a bastion for blatant transphobia, and hosts many of the top Lemmy communities, and a very large amount of the active Lemmy userbase. I think the effects of defederation would be immense, and take a lot of time and consideration to understand if it's overall beneficial to the community. That being said, I'm sure I could be swayed to support either side. I'd be very curious what Ada has to say about this, as I believe I'll support her opinion on the matter.
EDIT: I think it's valuable to point out that any individual user can block an instance in their settings. So regardless of any defederation decision (which Ada seems opposed to), anyone can choose to block the instance themselves.
75
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
That is partially why I opened this thread. A community discussion is something that could be beneficial here in deciding what to do.
There could be a lot of fallout from defederation though I don't feel like it would be particularly bad since most communities on Lemmy.ml are already a thing elsewhere, and have more users there too, and most people who want to be here already have accounts here or would very quickly and easily make accounts here or on an instance that federates with us.
25
flandish - 8mon
yeah. i mean isn’t this what downvotes and bans are for? instead of defederation?
7
Sophienomenal - 8mon
lemmy.blahah.zone does not allow downvotes. And the concern is moreso that some transphobic content wouldn't be moderated (based on nutomic's views), hence the burden of moderation would come down to our instance's admins, and that simply shouldn't be their responsibility. Defederation is for situations in which the instance in question is harmful to the community in the instance defederating. And if transphobia is not properly moderated, and transphobic views are allowed to spread, then that is actively harmful to lemmy.blahaj.zone.
17
flandish - 8mon
gotcha. i figured all posts could be up/downvoted. kinda still new here.
Blahaj.zone doesn't enable downvotes. As for bans. Sure. If it's a handful of one-off users. But if this speaks to the larger instance culture on .ml that's where defederation is considered, and because it's one of the lead admins, it speaks to their ability and willingness to keep their instance safe.
9
Count042 @lemmy.ml - 8mon
Personally, I would make the argument that Lemmy.ml, as the flagship server, has a culture far less impacted by the admin/developers views then any other instance.
I'm not wedded to that though. Consider it more a theory then a statement of fact.
2
scintilla @lemm.ee - 8mon
If they were more hands off I would agree but they do a lot of modding from the admin chair.
1
cm0002 @lemmy.world - 8mon
There are also plenty of other reasons to defed from them as well, I made a post here a few days ago recaping that as well as links to some documentation of it
4
Sophienomenal - 8mon
I mean, the two big communities for me are !linux@lemmy.ml and !mechanicalkeyboards@lemmy.ml, though the latter of which isn't really active anyway so I wouldn't be sad to see it go. There isn't a suitable replacement for the Linux community elsewhere, and that's honestly what I'm most active on, but if we defeferate, I'd probably just cut my losses. Yes, it is easy for people to create new accounts, but the hassle is that you cannot transfer your comments or posts to a new account, so you lose that history (as I've had to deal with). But overall, I think most people on ml would just stop seeing posts from our instance and never think about it. It would be a small minority that would even notice, but the majority would be getting less content from diverse voices in the queer community overall. Again, it would just take a lot of consideration.
4
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
There isn’t a suitable replacement for the Linux community elsewhere
What about !linux@programming.dev or !linux@sh.itjust.works? Those seem decently active.
but the hassle is that you cannot transfer your comments or posts to a new account
That is a minor drawback. It would be nice if they implemented ownership transfer abilities for posts and comments, though it'll probably be a while before we see that.
But overall, I think most people on ml would just stop seeing posts from our instance and never think about it. It would be a small minority that would even notice, but the majority would be getting less content from diverse voices in the queer community overall. Again, it would just take a lot of consideration.
I can see how and why this would be a problem and why this should be carefully considered, that can be a poor outcome. I guess the same can be said for any defederation including the feddit.uk one. It all depends I guess on how they handle these issues going forward and also how they handle this subject overall. If a lot of the people there are "I support trans people but I don't think kids..." (you get the idea) it doesn't really do much good to federate with them. At least in my opinion.
The former of the two (which is also the larger of them) has 13% of the userbase, although you're correct that it does seem fairly active. I suppose that would be a decent place to migrate to if defederation were to happen, although I tend to mostly help out new users, who tend to flock to the larger community. Again, I'd figure it out if it happened, it wouldn't actually be a problem. The latter of the two I would not consider very active by comparison.
That is a minor drawback. It would be nice if they implemented ownership transfer abilities for posts and comments, though it'll probably be a while before we see that.
Yes, this is one of the grievances I had when migrating here from lemmy.world, as I have some very detailed and helpful comments I wish were easier for me to find. I'd love to see that as a feature in the future, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
I can see how and why this would be a problem and why this should be carefully considered, that can be a poor outcome. I guess the same can be said for any defederation including the feddit.uk one. It all depends I guess on how they handle these issues going forward and also how they handle this subject overall. If a lot of the people there are "I support trans people but I don't think kids..." (you get the idea) it doesn't really do much good to federate with them. At least in my opinion.
Yes, I agree here. What I suppose I'm basically trying to say is that defederation is an extreme option, so it has to be considered carefully. If the community on ml starts to reflect transphobic views, then absolutely that would warrant defederation. But if it's a single admin, and it's otherwise being moderated to remove transphobic content, then I do think it's really difficult to determine without a lot more consideration. In most other situations, banning a single transphobic user may be sufficient. It all depends on how his views are reflected in the moderation and the content of the community as a whole. If it's resulting in transphobia, then it becomes a much more clear case. I don't have enough information to know if that is in fact the case.
2
socsa - 8mon
The solution is to organically marginalize .ml by supporting other activitypub projects. Then we get past the whole issue of major communities being hosted there, or them being a necessity institution.
9
Sophienomenal - 8mon
Honestly, yes. I definitely agree that this is the way to go.
4
ImADifferentBird - 8mon
Multiple states: "Let's literally use the force of law to ban trans people from existing."
This jackoff: "Hmmm, I just don't know if the bourgeoisie is really against trans rights! It's so hard to tell!"
I'm not going to weigh in on the defederation issue. I don't use enough .ml communities to know how this guy's views reflect in the moderation policies of the instance. But fuck him in particular.
55
DragonTypeWyvern @midwest.social - 8mon
Generally .ml is pretty trans rights, because their mods are hexbear alts.
This is just petty splitter bullshit, same as always...
But I also block .ml because their mods policies annoy me.
11
Railcar8095 @lemm.ee - 8mon
My experience is that hexbear only care about trans rights when criticizing "west". As soon as China or Russia are discussed, they turn surprisingly silent.
YMMV
25
DragonTypeWyvern @midwest.social - 8mon
Yeah that's probably fair, on a global political level. Still leaves them pretty rabid in terms of what they'll let you say without banning you though.
4
TranscendentalEmpire @lemm.ee - 8mon
ml is pretty trans rights, because their mods are hexbear alt
Hexbear has had its fair share of issues with sexism and objectification of trans women. There was a pretty big upset a while ago where people spoke up about being harassed, the community's reaction to it was pretty shitty.
8
irelephant [he/him]🍭 - 8mon
That's ironic considering a lot of them said that sexism and allowing chasers is what led them to hexbear, and why they avoided blahaj.
Not saying what they're saying is true.
5
southsamurai - 8mon
I'm not on my blahaj account, but I can copy/paste there if you'd prefer. Just seemed pointless when I use the same user name to switch over.
But I'm mainly giving some background to the whole matter, rather than primarily "voting" about defederation.
It's interesting that nutomic wants to get all het up after asking for donations to lemmy development.
That's largely why they've been so active in comments lately. They can't seem to keep from expecting people to pay them as individuals the develop lemmy, while also not being willing to at least be clear about where they stand.
And that's what the donation requests are about. They're not bringing in enough to develop full time. And that's an important thing, having full time developers on a project like this. What they don't seem to get is that they're not just asking us to pay for full time developers, they're asking us to pay them. They aren't figureheads or managers, so it isn't some kind of collective where you can point to other members of the dev team and say "well, maybe those two are unpleasant, but at least the rest aren't bigoted"
Which, afaik, dessalines has never publicly been bigoted. He can be a smug asshole sometimes, but so can I, so there's only so much complaining I can do there. But nutomic is a different issue, and this screen shot perfectly encapsulates how.
Donations would go into both of their pockets for their work, and they do deserve to be paid for that. Even jerks get to make a living. But we all get the choice as to whether or not we're a customer or not. Me? My double digit yearly open source budget is going to people that at least have the sense to have never shot their mouths off with bigoted bullshit. Lemmy is an amazing thing, and the world needs it. I just can't directly support a bigot. I can't, and won't do it.
I wouldn't hire on someone to fix my roof if they had a damn maga hat on, why would I give money to someone that is not only just as much of a bigot, but is also hyper authoritarian? I know hiring someone vs contributing to a project isn't a 1:1 equivalency, but the principle is.
Donations to then also fund .ml. And if anyone wants to donate like that, it's none of my
business. It's just important that it be known that you can't donate granularly. You donate, .ml gets some operating costs covered, dessalines gets a chunk, and nutomic gets a chunk.
And that's where this comes from. The discussion in the screen shot is fallout from that. Nutomic still holds the same views they always have, but wants people to ignore that when donating. Which is fine!
As far as defederation goes, all I can say is that, while I have had unpleasant runins with both of them, I've never been permanently banned from .ml, or any of its communities. Individual communities there can, and do, enforce anti-bigotry rules with no interference from admins. But, there are no specific instance rules regarding transphobia in particular.
Again, this is pretty much just added background for anyone that hasn't the time to go digging for the context of the screen shots.
52
neuracnu - 8mon
This looks like a fight trying to be picked, not something to defederate over.
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VirgilMastercard @reddthat.com - 8mon
Lemmy.ml doesn't tolerate transphobia regardless of nutomic's views and probably has a bigger trans userbase than even blahaj. Stop stirring drama.
There's certainly nice folks and great communities over there, but the bad faith arguments, "russia/china can do no wrong" propaganda (i had to block Yogthos to have literally anything show up in my All feed, JFC the spam posting), and outright hostile moderation, it just isn't worth engaging with.
19
theLetterJ - 8mon
How about you butt out of server discussions unless you're a user of that server?
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First Majestic Comet - 8mon
I agree, it's one thing to ask a question, it's another thing to make assertions like this. The latter of which is very inappropriate and disrespectful since this is a local discussion on Blahaj policies.
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explodicle @sh.itjust.works - 8mon
Is there a way to remove private discussions from the "all" feed?
1
Hildegarde - 8mon
This feels like cherry picked examples to try and frame nutomic as being transphobic. Its always this one screenshot, of a comment made in response to something else that I have never seen posted any of the times this has been brought up. A response without context is kind of sus.
Being uninformed or misinformed is not bigotry. There was a time when I probably would have said something similar, before I learned more, and knew better. I don't think this is strong evidence of a real issue.
Until the point that he makes more questionable statements about trans or lgbtqia2s+ people, this is fine as far as I'm concerned. I don't think what I have seen so far is actionable.
Edit: from reading Ada's comments in this thread I endorse her stance.
From the very strict enforcement standards of this instance, the DM was enough to warrant a ban for nutomic, but not enough to warrant defederation for ml. That seems fine until or unless more information comes to light.
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humanspiral @lemmy.ca - 8mon
It's far worse than this. Grad is a NAFO supremacist demonic sub that has nothing to do with trans rights, and their supremacist brainwashing agenda should always be resisted, for its deep nazi militarist roots, and no one who is not banned from that cesspool should ever be taken seriously.
In specific text exchange, the persecution target's crime is their supposed responsibility to correct the pigfucking stalker with expressing trans maximalism "of course men should be able to cheat at women's sport by wearing a dress". Disagreeing with that statement is objectively not anti-trans, and Grad supremacist brainworm circlejerk, is simply deflecting from no incriminating content whatsoever, other than justifying circular hatred.
If you have anything relevant to my previous comment please say so. What you typed is incoherent.
If you have information about the exchange post a screenshot, and stop the insults and name calling.
10
humanspiral @lemmy.ca - 8mon
cherry picked examples to try and frame nutomic as being transphobic.
I'm supporting that statement. I don't need different screenshots from OP's to point out that OP is showing a nothing burger.
Also, never seen lemmygrad. Just the NAFO troll site crossposted.
1
Hildegarde - 8mon
In that case, who or what do you mean by "grad?" And what is NAFO? I'm probably missing something.
2
humanspiral @lemmy.ca - 8mon
meanwhileongrad is aNAFO militarist empire supremacist group. Unrelated shit disturbing nonsense is exemplified by this specific trolling.
2
meh - 8mon
I don't think anything significant would be lost by dumping ml. two years ago sure, the platform was too small but now ml is just annoying. I don't know how the governance of that sever is set up. but if nutomic has control of the domain, its more a question of when will he decide to change ml rules. I trust ada to make the call when federation with ml becomes a problem. guess i'm just chiming in to reaffirm that for when the time comes.
don't know how lemmy as a platform grows long term if nutomic retains any level of control over it. but i'll probably just be following you fuckin weirdos onto the next platform so it's not that big a deal. maybe it could be a nostalgic return to internet forums.
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irelephant [he/him]🍭 - 8mon
Nutomic doesn't really mod .ml much anymore.
3
meh - 8mon
his current mod practices are not my point. and he's already banned from here, nutomic isnt a problem here for us in this moment. but if he retains control of the ml server/domain in some way. his responses to db0 definitely show him obsfuscating, not being naive or uninformed. when the blowback from his own statements causes him to drop the mask full-time. ml rules could become whatever he decides and the mod team becomes whatever he needs to enforce that. if the ml server governance is designed in a way to protect against that, great! the odds of it going fully hostile are lower.
5
Zizzy - 8mon
I personally blocked ml a long time ago and my experience is much better for it. Their moderation and userbase leave much to be desired. As far as nutomic, I would say it seems like hes not a good person from what I know, and especially this post.
29
Of the Air (cele/celes) - 8mon
Yes. There should be no handwringing over this. If admins/mods for an instance are bigoted, fash, or other such things then they deserve to get defederated as they will allow many bad things and spread their hate. It is best to isolate them as they want to spread their hate and convert more people, that's their entire goal.
26
ManlickerM2001 - 8mon
I personally haven't seen any transphobic posts on .ml so I don't see a reason to block the whole instance.
I also see some folx ITT taking issue with the left-leaning user base of .ml, but I don't think we should enforce political views that aren't related to LGBT rights here.
25
Genius @lemmy.zip - 8mon
taking issue with the left-leaning user base of .ml
Nobody who isn't an avid .ml user thinks the problem is their leftism. If it was, instances like Blahaj and db0 would get the same hate. I'm guessing this is your Blahaj alt account?
24
vxx @lemmy.world - 8mon
Left leaning? They're extremists parotting russian propaganda.
Theyre actively harming the left, and I think it's by design.
10
Zero22xx - 8mon
Tankies showing us how close to right wing conservatives they really are. How unusual /s. Makes one look at this particular crowd's big push to not vote in elections against a wannabe bigot fascist a little differently..
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spooky2092 - 8mon
Makes one look at this particular crowd's big push to not vote in elections against a wannabe bigot fascist a little differently
Maybe for some, but I've been saying for over a year that the "leftist" "don't vote" crowd was actively shooting the cause the supposedly believe in right in the leg.
Nothing says "I believe in leftist ideals and the plight of the proletariat" like actively promoting pathways that are explicitly letting the Nazis take power.
13
dumblederp @aussie.zone - 8mon
I heard someone describe tankies as alt-left. E: haha you tankie fucks.
5
Ginny [they/she] - 8mon
But he used the word bourgeoisie. That means it's Marxist and left-wing. /j
3
Draconic NEO - 8mon
I saw this earlier in !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works and it's pretty bad. I'm in favor of defederation, at the very least to help cut some of .ml's network effect on the Fediverse. Since many of their communities are insanely large and they're also very well known for banning people for let's just say less than justified reasons. Nutomic's transphobia is really the last straw in my opinion.
If people are interested in looking for alternative to popular .ml communities, !de_ml@lemmy.blahaj.zone is a good place to look.
I don't think anyone needs to stop using or break away from Lemmy like people say. Lemmy is open-source and can easily be forked. Lemmy's devs don't have the authority to deny people from using Lemmy either. Instances operate independent of them, and since many instances are already here and using Lemmy, switching to something completely different and incompatible would be extremely damaging.
24
goodeye8 - 8mon
I agree with you but I do want to clarify this point.
switching to something completely different and incompatible would be extremely damaging.
Since Lemmy uses the underlying ActivityPub protocol you can use something completely different and it is compatible. For example in response to this latest drama with Lemmy devs I switched to fedia.io, which is running on Mbin and not Lemmy. Mbin is compatible with Lemmy because Mbin also uses ActivityPub. The compatibility happens on a protocol level not the service level. You can go search up Mbin magazines (which is essentially the same thing as a community) and interact with the same way as you would with a Lemmy community. You can't set up a community on an Mastodon instance because it doesn't have that functionality but you can theoretically comment in Lemmy and Mbin communities thanks to the ActivityPub. You can also use Piefed as it fills the same social media niche. The platforms that are incompatible would be platforms that are not using ActivityPub.
Instance owners can't just rip out Lemmy, shove in Mbin and call it a day, sadly it's not that simple. But for the average user you can create an Mbin account and as long as the instance is federated with all the instances your Lemmy account was then you can subscribe to all the community you were subscribed to before and the only functional difference in your daily usage is the sorting algorithm (. For instance owners the only possible solution may to be have a migratory period where you have two instances running, so people could slowly transition from one instance to another but looking at how hard it was to get people to move from Reddit I think moving instances is a whole other topic.
I'm not saying people must move away from Lemmy but I do want to remind people that Lemmy is not the only option and that moving from Lemmy to something else in the fediverse won't be as painful as moving from Reddit to Lemmy.
8
Draconic NEO - 8mon
Instance owners can’t just rip out Lemmy, shove in Mbin and call it a day, sadly it’s not that simple.
That was really my whole point, since the databases aren't compatible. A switch from Lemmy to something else would reboot the instance completely.
But also it's not necessary for instances that aren't lemmy.ml. Maybe some instances out there are loyal to .ml but that doesn't mean all of them are. This one certainly isn't and neither is my main one dbzer0.
I’m not saying people must move away from Lemmy but I do want to remind people that Lemmy is not the only option and that moving from Lemmy to something else in the fediverse won’t be as painful as moving from Reddit to Lemmy.
That's good, I see a surprising amount of people saying that users and instance owners should switch to piefed or mbin over this as a form of "boycott" which I think is dumb because we don't have any onligation to give money to the devs, to support them, or even to federate with them. This instance banned nutomic for his transphobic rhetoric, and quokk.au defederates all of .ml as a whole.
2
katy ✨ - 8mon
lemmy devs being bigoted it's more likely than it think
i really wish there was a valid lemmy alternative software or wish postmill implemented atproto or ap :(
Yep, bad views don't just stop at one particular thing. Flagship instances often go this way sadly, and thus should be defederated from unless they significantly improve.
8
lookupgeorgism @lemm.ee - 8mon
Isn’t lemmy already?
1
Commiunism @beehaw.org - 8mon
It's the first time I see the transphobic original message, and honestly I'm not surprised to see it within ML community. In general, they and the ideology is already rather cultish given their beliefs and the shunning of "wrongthink", but there's a smaller subsection of ML's who genuinely believe in this kind of reactionary chauvinism that's a complete bastardization of Marxism.
There's probably no one on this specific community who goes "hmm maybe there's some merit to that statement", but in case there is:
Trans people exist, and much like proletarians, their experience is shaped by our society and material conditions. They suffer through medical gatekeeping, discrimination and state violence among other things, all of them stemming from structures of capitalist domination, and just because occasionally some bourgeoisie opportunistically exploit these issues to garner support/profit from rainbow capitalism and the like, doesn't mean you should go full reactionary.
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kittenzrulz123 - 8mon
I keep hearing people say that beehaw is filled with reactionaries, does that hold any merit?
3
Commiunism @beehaw.org - 8mon
First time I'm hearing of that but no, it's mostly liberal progressive types here.
6
DragonTypeWyvern @midwest.social - 8mon
Liberals, sure.
Progressives?
You can get away with all kind of reactionary nonsense as long as you're polite about your bigotry and run around JAQing off.
6
kittenzrulz123 - 8mon
Good, as I suspected world users are... Well they're world users
1
RymrgandsDaughter - 8mon
Is this guy even real? lmao at this point he might as well admit to being a christo-facist
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First Majestic Comet - 8mon
They're doing what many TERFs do, trying to cover up their bigotry with politeness and trying to sound like it's about logic or discussing the meaning of things. Trying to make their transphobia seem acceptable. Then they say trans people are unreasonable when they get called out or banned for their bigotry.
13
RymrgandsDaughter - 8mon
Well terfs are definitely nazis
2
theLetterJ - 8mon
Defederate, and I would have said the same if you asked me yesterday.
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P4ulin_Kbana @lemmy.eco.br - 8mon
I never really liked his ideas, trans-related or not, but why the hell was he saying all of that just for a (presumably) message about a Firefox plugin???????
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Norah (pup/it/she) - 8mon
I'd really hate to lose !linux@lemmy.ml honestly, it's the largest community for Linux stuff, and a big part of what I spend my time on Lemmy doing. While the stuff Nutomic has said is awful, I'd also really like to see instances of moderation on lemmy.ml that are problematic/transphobic before making the call to defederate.
Comm Subscriber count is misleading and can easily be full of dead accounts
8
Norah (pup/it/she) - 8mon
That's fair, and you're right that it's possible, but as well it's possible all those accounts come online in a 3-4 month rotation.
The more important point for me though is whether or not there are transphobic moderation instances. I know they can be really abrasive, I've seen the PTB threads, but none of that seems to have been major instances of transphobia that I can tell. I'm all for defederation in those cases when admins refuse to moderate transphobic dogwhistles and the like, I was super supportive of the feddit.uk defed for example. But one admin on a team of many saying something transphobic that's a personal view doesn't quite reach that threshold for me. Especially on a larger instance where I think we have to consider the ramifications of fracturing the community a lot more in my opinion.
3
cm0002 @lemmy.world - 8mon
Nutomic is a transphobe, but the rest of the admin/mods I haven't noticed any issue on. And if that was the only reason to consider defederation, id be right there with you. But Nutomics bigoted stance is really just one of other major issues with .ml. here's a post I made a few days ago recaping those issues: https://lemmy.world/post/29072279
3
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
They do indeed have a history of problematic moderation in general, though I'm not sure about how much they let thinly veiled transphobia slip there. There's not much of it to begin with and can be difficult to spot at first.
I’d really hate to lose !linux@lemmy.ml honestly
I pointed out in the other comment two alternatives to the Linux comm. !linux@programming.dev and !linux@sh.itjust.works, both have decent activity and could be more active if more users started posting.
4
Norah (pup/it/she) - 8mon
They both have tens of thousands of less users. As for the moderation, I know they can be bad at that, and difficult to appeal to, but I've yet to see anything transphobic.
3
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
They both have tens of thousands of less users.
Subscriber wise they are vastly different in size, MAUs aren't as drastic. Which is largely what matters.
5
maria [she/her] - 8mon
yea let's defederate.
somthin somthin terf-tankie-whatevr... somthin along those lines... i dun evn kno whad those words mean
15
InfiniteHench @lemmy.world - 8mon
TERF = Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (transphobia)
Tankie = Apologists for outright oppressive, murderous regimes like Putin's Russia and North Korea
7
Gamma - 8mon
This is one of the major reasons I’m supportive of Beehaw migrating platforms
Edit: didn’t realize which com this was on
14
Zero22xx - 8mon
Beehaw users and communities always give me good vibes. Even before I looked the instance up and saw that good vibes are its thing. And if that entire instance left Lemmy, I think that would be pretty sad because we need all of the good vibes and good people around here that we can get.
15
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
Admin Ping for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone to weigh in on this issue with her thoughts and opinions on the matter.
13
Ada - 8mon
Nutomic was banned from this instance approximately 9 months ago when I first become aware of his stance. However, it's not something I plan on defederating over unless it becomes clear that the instance as a whole is not acting on transphobic content or unless it becomes clear that the community strongly believes that we should defederate.
72
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
Yeah that's why I decided to make the thread sooner rather than later. I wanted to get the community's opinions on it and see what they think. I do think there is the risk of Nutomic and others refusing to action transphobic rhetoric similar to his own if it seems "respectful" and "logical".
9
Ada - 8mon
If that starts happening, we will defederate. But he doesn't seem to be standing in the way of the rest of the instance staff from dealing with it as far as I can tell.
21
Zetta @mander.xyz - 8mon
I think defederating almost any instance is dumb, not my instance though so do what you will.
13
Ledericas @lemm.ee - 8mon
not because its only transphobia, but the obvious misinformation they believe in, much like right wingers do. glad i can block both hexbear and ml instances.
12
socsa - 8mon
Migrate to piefed. Donate to piefed.
This shit ends when the problematic and cringe Lemmy devs lose the power of owning the platform. There are other mature activitypub projects, and literally all we need to do is support them.
11
ImADifferentBird - 8mon
The problem with moving to another server software is that there's a much bigger developer ecosystem around Lemmy. Other projects simply can't match that.
Like, there are multiple Lemmy clients in Google Play and F-Droid, for example. There isn't even one for PieFed in either store.
6
lookupgeorgism @lemm.ee - 8mon
Why is it not enough to just switch Lemmy server or block ml instances?
5
Oniononon - 8mon
Cause devs have contorl over the software and can implement subtle ways to get people think ml instances are the real lemmy. EG suggesting it at the lemmy site for any newcomers, making its threads get slight priority in the feed of every and so on.
3
Sibbo - 8mon
What statement about transgender people are we talking about?
I thought more people had seen this since it's older and pinned in MeanwhileOnGrad.
15
F/15/Cali@threads.net - 8mon
allowing biological men to compete
I don’t go to this school, but this line seems irredeemably constructed.
21
apotheotic (she/her) - 8mon
This is baffling. How can you be so bad at communism that you think trans rights are something the bourgeoisie are pushing
10
Alfredolin @sopuli.xyz - 8mon
Yeah. All transphobe considerations apart (and that's something!), this is a terrible "marxist" take.
3
amino - 8mon
he regularly bans people for calling .ml users out on their denial of the Uyghur genocide. he was just one stone throw away from also denying the trans genocide.
this is why authoritarians should never get the benefit of the doubt, they'll never stick with just one dangerous belief.
8
SpicyLizards @reddthat.com - 8mon
Would be so good to see
8
ButteryNickel @lemmy.wtf - 8mon
Lemmy.today maybe too
7
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
Lemmy.today has already been defederated from blahaj.zone because they had some nasty spam and transphobia problems.
10
Ech - 8mon
give away for free
I'm assuming this is under one of the several threads soliciting donations? Just because it doesn't require payment to use doesn't absolve them of any problems people might have that would keep them from handing over money in other capacities.
4
Of the Air (cele/celes) - 8mon
It's a bad argument yet devs always seem to want to hide behind it. Free things do not allow someone or somemany to just support horrific things and everybody else has to be okay with that.
Did you contact their mods or admins? They should have an opportunity to administer appropriate action first. Then, if they are ok with this bullshit, de-fed.
Meanwhile, may I endorse a cool shirt that people might want to wear this summer:
Nutomic is one of the head admins on Lemmy.ml, there are others as well but he's one of the two in charge of the whole place.
16
some_guy @lemmy.sdf.org - 8mon
Well, in that case, fuck 'em.
6
mikezeman @lemm.ee - 8mon
That is their admin, and also one of the lead developers of Lemmy.
12
some_guy @lemmy.sdf.org - 8mon
The other comment that identified them as an admin disappointed me but this one makes me sad.
2
electric_nan @lemmy.ml - 8mon
I'm disappointed in nutomic's statements as well. I won't be donating him any money, but it seems hypocritical to say you won't stop using Lemmy, but you want to defed from .ml.
1
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
How? It's free and open source software. This sentiment just seems dumb. Where's the implication that using free and open-source software like Lemmy means you need to support the devs or federate with their server? I see no such rule, and it's not like they can stop or disallow you from using it (nature of open-source).
Anyone can host an instance and choose to run it however they like, the devs have no control in how or why people use Lemmy. It seems like a lot of people have trouble grasping this concept.
11
electric_nan @lemmy.ml - 8mon
I'm not talking about rules. How is using software maintained by nutomic fundamentally different from federating with an instance they run?
1
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
The same way that having code on your computer written by stallman doesn't mean you support him or his views. Unless the creator backdoored it to do what they want against your authority, it doesn't mean a whole lot.
5
electric_nan @lemmy.ml - 8mon
OK sure, but how does federating (not even having an account here like me) with his instance mean you support nutomic or his views?
4
ImADifferentBird - 8mon
Using a discussion forum moderated by someone is a completely different thing than using code written by them. A mod or admin of an instance has power to shape discussion on that instance.
It's not just about "supporting" him in some abstract sense, it's about potentially exposing blahaj users to the very hate that blahaj is meant to be a safe space from.
9
First Majestic Comet - 8mon
When did I say that? I said we should consider defederation as a community because transphobic views of an admin are risky and may lead to inaction towards transphobia on that server. That's the whole reason why we defederated feddit.uk before this, which is why I wanted feedback on this, from the local Blahaj.zone community.
FirstMajesticComet in main
We might want to consider Defederaton of Lemmy.ml
As posted about recently in !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works and !fediverselore@lemmy.ca it seems that @nutomic@lemmy.ml's stance on transphobia has not changed and his apology only seems to be that he was sorry he got caught and that someone leaked the DM. This is concerning for an admin of Lemmy.ml and the leader of the project. I don't think this means we should stop using Lemmy, it's open-source and even if they embed donation links, they can be stripped out in our fork. But it does make me wonder if we should consider defederating lemmy.ml on that merit. Since if they hold such views on trans issues, it's very likely they won't have any desire to act on that type of transphobia being expressed on their instance.
I know that Lemmy.ml has and does handle overt transphobia well, but I can't speak to their ability to handle less overt or thinly veiled transphobia, and this incident doesn't inspire much confidence either.
Edit: Since some people haven't seen the original. I decided to include it here. Warning, it contains transphobia, if you don't want to see that, don't open the spoiler.
::: spoiler CW: Transphobic talking points https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/e65d59a4-e335-42e1-88e3-f30708116c5b.jpeg :::
I'd really like to hear Feedback from Blahaj's local community on this, I'm not as interested in outside opinions here so please try to refrain from top-level commenting if you aren't from lemmy.blahaj.zone (I will ignore them if you comment anyway from a remote instance).
Personally, I don't think his shitty views necessarily translate into .ml moderation policy and action, which to me would be the problem that defederation is meant to solve.
That said, I wouldn't mind defed-ing from them in general, as most of my unpleasant interactions in the fediverse have been with .ml users.
Ultimately, I'll back Ada on what she thinks and decides. She's very level headed and strict with other instances as far as blahaj zones mission statement is concerned, and I trust her completely.
Yeah I’m really starting to regret making my Lemmy account with this server. At the time it was just the biggest one and I didn’t know anything about the type of communities they hosted. I tend to stay out of politics, I’m just here for the funny memes man
There's some dedicated Lemmy migration software, which copies your old subscriptions and probably other settings to your new account. At least, I remember using when I switched from .world to .dbzer0 quite some time ago. So you don't have to hesitate from looking for a different instance to register on.
You can export your settings and communities in settings, and import them on another server.
That’s like me and .world
Personally, I have a very poor opinion of nutomic. And yes, he has always been/felt transphobic. He has a history of making massive oversteps to attack people that have differing opinions to his, and overall I believe him to be a threat to the trans community. As for whether we should defederate? I really have no clue. It certainly isn't a bastion for blatant transphobia, and hosts many of the top Lemmy communities, and a very large amount of the active Lemmy userbase. I think the effects of defederation would be immense, and take a lot of time and consideration to understand if it's overall beneficial to the community. That being said, I'm sure I could be swayed to support either side. I'd be very curious what Ada has to say about this, as I believe I'll support her opinion on the matter.
EDIT: I think it's valuable to point out that any individual user can block an instance in their settings. So regardless of any defederation decision (which Ada seems opposed to), anyone can choose to block the instance themselves.
That is partially why I opened this thread. A community discussion is something that could be beneficial here in deciding what to do. There could be a lot of fallout from defederation though I don't feel like it would be particularly bad since most communities on Lemmy.ml are already a thing elsewhere, and have more users there too, and most people who want to be here already have accounts here or would very quickly and easily make accounts here or on an instance that federates with us.
yeah. i mean isn’t this what downvotes and bans are for? instead of defederation?
lemmy.blahah.zone does not allow downvotes. And the concern is moreso that some transphobic content wouldn't be moderated (based on nutomic's views), hence the burden of moderation would come down to our instance's admins, and that simply shouldn't be their responsibility. Defederation is for situations in which the instance in question is harmful to the community in the instance defederating. And if transphobia is not properly moderated, and transphobic views are allowed to spread, then that is actively harmful to lemmy.blahaj.zone.
gotcha. i figured all posts could be up/downvoted. kinda still new here.
Context for why they're blocked here
gotcha. thanks!
Blahaj.zone doesn't enable downvotes. As for bans. Sure. If it's a handful of one-off users. But if this speaks to the larger instance culture on .ml that's where defederation is considered, and because it's one of the lead admins, it speaks to their ability and willingness to keep their instance safe.
Personally, I would make the argument that Lemmy.ml, as the flagship server, has a culture far less impacted by the admin/developers views then any other instance.
I'm not wedded to that though. Consider it more a theory then a statement of fact.
If they were more hands off I would agree but they do a lot of modding from the admin chair.
There are also plenty of other reasons to defed from them as well, I made a post here a few days ago recaping that as well as links to some documentation of it
I mean, the two big communities for me are !linux@lemmy.ml and !mechanicalkeyboards@lemmy.ml, though the latter of which isn't really active anyway so I wouldn't be sad to see it go. There isn't a suitable replacement for the Linux community elsewhere, and that's honestly what I'm most active on, but if we defeferate, I'd probably just cut my losses. Yes, it is easy for people to create new accounts, but the hassle is that you cannot transfer your comments or posts to a new account, so you lose that history (as I've had to deal with). But overall, I think most people on ml would just stop seeing posts from our instance and never think about it. It would be a small minority that would even notice, but the majority would be getting less content from diverse voices in the queer community overall. Again, it would just take a lot of consideration.
What about !linux@programming.dev or !linux@sh.itjust.works? Those seem decently active.
That is a minor drawback. It would be nice if they implemented ownership transfer abilities for posts and comments, though it'll probably be a while before we see that.
I can see how and why this would be a problem and why this should be carefully considered, that can be a poor outcome. I guess the same can be said for any defederation including the feddit.uk one. It all depends I guess on how they handle these issues going forward and also how they handle this subject overall. If a lot of the people there are "I support trans people but I don't think kids..." (you get the idea) it doesn't really do much good to federate with them. At least in my opinion.
The former of the two (which is also the larger of them) has 13% of the userbase, although you're correct that it does seem fairly active. I suppose that would be a decent place to migrate to if defederation were to happen, although I tend to mostly help out new users, who tend to flock to the larger community. Again, I'd figure it out if it happened, it wouldn't actually be a problem. The latter of the two I would not consider very active by comparison.
Yes, this is one of the grievances I had when migrating here from lemmy.world, as I have some very detailed and helpful comments I wish were easier for me to find. I'd love to see that as a feature in the future, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Yes, I agree here. What I suppose I'm basically trying to say is that defederation is an extreme option, so it has to be considered carefully. If the community on ml starts to reflect transphobic views, then absolutely that would warrant defederation. But if it's a single admin, and it's otherwise being moderated to remove transphobic content, then I do think it's really difficult to determine without a lot more consideration. In most other situations, banning a single transphobic user may be sufficient. It all depends on how his views are reflected in the moderation and the content of the community as a whole. If it's resulting in transphobia, then it becomes a much more clear case. I don't have enough information to know if that is in fact the case.
The solution is to organically marginalize .ml by supporting other activitypub projects. Then we get past the whole issue of major communities being hosted there, or them being a necessity institution.
Honestly, yes. I definitely agree that this is the way to go.
Multiple states: "Let's literally use the force of law to ban trans people from existing."
This jackoff: "Hmmm, I just don't know if the bourgeoisie is really against trans rights! It's so hard to tell!"
I'm not going to weigh in on the defederation issue. I don't use enough .ml communities to know how this guy's views reflect in the moderation policies of the instance. But fuck him in particular.
Generally .ml is pretty trans rights, because their mods are hexbear alts.
This is just petty splitter bullshit, same as always...
But I also block .ml because their mods policies annoy me.
My experience is that hexbear only care about trans rights when criticizing "west". As soon as China or Russia are discussed, they turn surprisingly silent.
YMMV
Yeah that's probably fair, on a global political level. Still leaves them pretty rabid in terms of what they'll let you say without banning you though.
Hexbear has had its fair share of issues with sexism and objectification of trans women. There was a pretty big upset a while ago where people spoke up about being harassed, the community's reaction to it was pretty shitty.
That's ironic considering a lot of them said that sexism and allowing chasers is what led them to hexbear, and why they avoided blahaj.
Not saying what they're saying is true.
I'm not on my blahaj account, but I can copy/paste there if you'd prefer. Just seemed pointless when I use the same user name to switch over.
But I'm mainly giving some background to the whole matter, rather than primarily "voting" about defederation.
It's interesting that nutomic wants to get all het up after asking for donations to lemmy development.
That's largely why they've been so active in comments lately. They can't seem to keep from expecting people to pay them as individuals the develop lemmy, while also not being willing to at least be clear about where they stand.
And that's what the donation requests are about. They're not bringing in enough to develop full time. And that's an important thing, having full time developers on a project like this. What they don't seem to get is that they're not just asking us to pay for full time developers, they're asking us to pay them. They aren't figureheads or managers, so it isn't some kind of collective where you can point to other members of the dev team and say "well, maybe those two are unpleasant, but at least the rest aren't bigoted"
Which, afaik, dessalines has never publicly been bigoted. He can be a smug asshole sometimes, but so can I, so there's only so much complaining I can do there. But nutomic is a different issue, and this screen shot perfectly encapsulates how.
Donations would go into both of their pockets for their work, and they do deserve to be paid for that. Even jerks get to make a living. But we all get the choice as to whether or not we're a customer or not. Me? My double digit yearly open source budget is going to people that at least have the sense to have never shot their mouths off with bigoted bullshit. Lemmy is an amazing thing, and the world needs it. I just can't directly support a bigot. I can't, and won't do it.
I wouldn't hire on someone to fix my roof if they had a damn maga hat on, why would I give money to someone that is not only just as much of a bigot, but is also hyper authoritarian? I know hiring someone vs contributing to a project isn't a 1:1 equivalency, but the principle is.
Donations to then also fund .ml. And if anyone wants to donate like that, it's none of my business. It's just important that it be known that you can't donate granularly. You donate, .ml gets some operating costs covered, dessalines gets a chunk, and nutomic gets a chunk.
And that's where this comes from. The discussion in the screen shot is fallout from that. Nutomic still holds the same views they always have, but wants people to ignore that when donating. Which is fine!
As far as defederation goes, all I can say is that, while I have had unpleasant runins with both of them, I've never been permanently banned from .ml, or any of its communities. Individual communities there can, and do, enforce anti-bigotry rules with no interference from admins. But, there are no specific instance rules regarding transphobia in particular.
Again, this is pretty much just added background for anyone that hasn't the time to go digging for the context of the screen shots.
This looks like a fight trying to be picked, not something to defederate over.
Lemmy.ml doesn't tolerate transphobia regardless of nutomic's views and probably has a bigger trans userbase than even blahaj. Stop stirring drama.
There's plenty of other things the other admins and mods do that is worthy of consideration of defederation
^ pretty much sums up my thoughts on .ML
There's certainly nice folks and great communities over there, but the bad faith arguments, "russia/china can do no wrong" propaganda (i had to block Yogthos to have literally anything show up in my All feed, JFC the spam posting), and outright hostile moderation, it just isn't worth engaging with.
How about you butt out of server discussions unless you're a user of that server?
I agree, it's one thing to ask a question, it's another thing to make assertions like this. The latter of which is very inappropriate and disrespectful since this is a local discussion on Blahaj policies.
Is there a way to remove private discussions from the "all" feed?
This feels like cherry picked examples to try and frame nutomic as being transphobic. Its always this one screenshot, of a comment made in response to something else that I have never seen posted any of the times this has been brought up. A response without context is kind of sus.
Being uninformed or misinformed is not bigotry. There was a time when I probably would have said something similar, before I learned more, and knew better. I don't think this is strong evidence of a real issue.
Until the point that he makes more questionable statements about trans or lgbtqia2s+ people, this is fine as far as I'm concerned. I don't think what I have seen so far is actionable.
Edit: from reading Ada's comments in this thread I endorse her stance.
From the very strict enforcement standards of this instance, the DM was enough to warrant a ban for nutomic, but not enough to warrant defederation for ml. That seems fine until or unless more information comes to light.
It's far worse than this. Grad is a NAFO supremacist demonic sub that has nothing to do with trans rights, and their supremacist brainwashing agenda should always be resisted, for its deep nazi militarist roots, and no one who is not banned from that cesspool should ever be taken seriously.
In specific text exchange, the persecution target's crime is their supposed responsibility to correct the pigfucking stalker with expressing trans maximalism "of course men should be able to cheat at women's sport by wearing a dress". Disagreeing with that statement is objectively not anti-trans, and Grad supremacist brainworm circlejerk, is simply deflecting from no incriminating content whatsoever, other than justifying circular hatred.
ummmm.... what?
this discussion is about lemmy.ml, not lemmygrad.
If you have anything relevant to my previous comment please say so. What you typed is incoherent.
If you have information about the exchange post a screenshot, and stop the insults and name calling.
I'm supporting that statement. I don't need different screenshots from OP's to point out that OP is showing a nothing burger.
Also, never seen lemmygrad. Just the NAFO troll site crossposted.
In that case, who or what do you mean by "grad?" And what is NAFO? I'm probably missing something.
meanwhileongrad is aNAFO militarist empire supremacist group. Unrelated shit disturbing nonsense is exemplified by this specific trolling.
I don't think anything significant would be lost by dumping ml. two years ago sure, the platform was too small but now ml is just annoying. I don't know how the governance of that sever is set up. but if nutomic has control of the domain, its more a question of when will he decide to change ml rules. I trust ada to make the call when federation with ml becomes a problem. guess i'm just chiming in to reaffirm that for when the time comes. don't know how lemmy as a platform grows long term if nutomic retains any level of control over it. but i'll probably just be following you fuckin weirdos onto the next platform so it's not that big a deal. maybe it could be a nostalgic return to internet forums.
Nutomic doesn't really mod .ml much anymore.
his current mod practices are not my point. and he's already banned from here, nutomic isnt a problem here for us in this moment. but if he retains control of the ml server/domain in some way. his responses to db0 definitely show him obsfuscating, not being naive or uninformed. when the blowback from his own statements causes him to drop the mask full-time. ml rules could become whatever he decides and the mod team becomes whatever he needs to enforce that. if the ml server governance is designed in a way to protect against that, great! the odds of it going fully hostile are lower.
I personally blocked ml a long time ago and my experience is much better for it. Their moderation and userbase leave much to be desired. As far as nutomic, I would say it seems like hes not a good person from what I know, and especially this post.
Yes. There should be no handwringing over this. If admins/mods for an instance are bigoted, fash, or other such things then they deserve to get defederated as they will allow many bad things and spread their hate. It is best to isolate them as they want to spread their hate and convert more people, that's their entire goal.
I personally haven't seen any transphobic posts on .ml so I don't see a reason to block the whole instance. I also see some folx ITT taking issue with the left-leaning user base of .ml, but I don't think we should enforce political views that aren't related to LGBT rights here.
Nobody who isn't an avid .ml user thinks the problem is their leftism. If it was, instances like Blahaj and db0 would get the same hate. I'm guessing this is your Blahaj alt account?
Left leaning? They're extremists parotting russian propaganda.
Theyre actively harming the left, and I think it's by design.
Tankies showing us how close to right wing conservatives they really are. How unusual /s. Makes one look at this particular crowd's big push to not vote in elections against a wannabe bigot fascist a little differently..
Maybe for some, but I've been saying for over a year that the "leftist" "don't vote" crowd was actively shooting the cause the supposedly believe in right in the leg.
Nothing says "I believe in leftist ideals and the plight of the proletariat" like actively promoting pathways that are explicitly letting the Nazis take power.
I heard someone describe tankies as alt-left. E: haha you tankie fucks.
But he used the word bourgeoisie. That means it's Marxist and left-wing. /j
I saw this earlier in !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works and it's pretty bad. I'm in favor of defederation, at the very least to help cut some of .ml's network effect on the Fediverse. Since many of their communities are insanely large and they're also very well known for banning people for let's just say less than justified reasons. Nutomic's transphobia is really the last straw in my opinion. If people are interested in looking for alternative to popular .ml communities, !de_ml@lemmy.blahaj.zone is a good place to look.
I don't think anyone needs to stop using or break away from Lemmy like people say. Lemmy is open-source and can easily be forked. Lemmy's devs don't have the authority to deny people from using Lemmy either. Instances operate independent of them, and since many instances are already here and using Lemmy, switching to something completely different and incompatible would be extremely damaging.
I agree with you but I do want to clarify this point.
Since Lemmy uses the underlying ActivityPub protocol you can use something completely different and it is compatible. For example in response to this latest drama with Lemmy devs I switched to fedia.io, which is running on Mbin and not Lemmy. Mbin is compatible with Lemmy because Mbin also uses ActivityPub. The compatibility happens on a protocol level not the service level. You can go search up Mbin magazines (which is essentially the same thing as a community) and interact with the same way as you would with a Lemmy community. You can't set up a community on an Mastodon instance because it doesn't have that functionality but you can theoretically comment in Lemmy and Mbin communities thanks to the ActivityPub. You can also use Piefed as it fills the same social media niche. The platforms that are incompatible would be platforms that are not using ActivityPub.
Instance owners can't just rip out Lemmy, shove in Mbin and call it a day, sadly it's not that simple. But for the average user you can create an Mbin account and as long as the instance is federated with all the instances your Lemmy account was then you can subscribe to all the community you were subscribed to before and the only functional difference in your daily usage is the sorting algorithm (. For instance owners the only possible solution may to be have a migratory period where you have two instances running, so people could slowly transition from one instance to another but looking at how hard it was to get people to move from Reddit I think moving instances is a whole other topic.
I'm not saying people must move away from Lemmy but I do want to remind people that Lemmy is not the only option and that moving from Lemmy to something else in the fediverse won't be as painful as moving from Reddit to Lemmy.
That was really my whole point, since the databases aren't compatible. A switch from Lemmy to something else would reboot the instance completely. But also it's not necessary for instances that aren't lemmy.ml. Maybe some instances out there are loyal to .ml but that doesn't mean all of them are. This one certainly isn't and neither is my main one dbzer0.
That's good, I see a surprising amount of people saying that users and instance owners should switch to piefed or mbin over this as a form of "boycott" which I think is dumb because we don't have any onligation to give money to the devs, to support them, or even to federate with them. This instance banned nutomic for his transphobic rhetoric, and quokk.au defederates all of .ml as a whole.
lemmy devs being bigoted it's more likely than it think
i really wish there was a valid lemmy alternative software or wish postmill implemented atproto or ap :(
Other reasons here as well to consider defederation
Yep, bad views don't just stop at one particular thing. Flagship instances often go this way sadly, and thus should be defederated from unless they significantly improve.
Isn’t lemmy already?
It's the first time I see the transphobic original message, and honestly I'm not surprised to see it within ML community. In general, they and the ideology is already rather cultish given their beliefs and the shunning of "wrongthink", but there's a smaller subsection of ML's who genuinely believe in this kind of reactionary chauvinism that's a complete bastardization of Marxism.
There's probably no one on this specific community who goes "hmm maybe there's some merit to that statement", but in case there is:
Trans people exist, and much like proletarians, their experience is shaped by our society and material conditions. They suffer through medical gatekeeping, discrimination and state violence among other things, all of them stemming from structures of capitalist domination, and just because occasionally some bourgeoisie opportunistically exploit these issues to garner support/profit from rainbow capitalism and the like, doesn't mean you should go full reactionary.
I keep hearing people say that beehaw is filled with reactionaries, does that hold any merit?
First time I'm hearing of that but no, it's mostly liberal progressive types here.
Liberals, sure.
Progressives?
You can get away with all kind of reactionary nonsense as long as you're polite about your bigotry and run around JAQing off.
Good, as I suspected world users are... Well they're world users
Is this guy even real? lmao at this point he might as well admit to being a christo-facist
They're doing what many TERFs do, trying to cover up their bigotry with politeness and trying to sound like it's about logic or discussing the meaning of things. Trying to make their transphobia seem acceptable. Then they say trans people are unreasonable when they get called out or banned for their bigotry.
Well terfs are definitely nazis
Defederate, and I would have said the same if you asked me yesterday.
I never really liked his ideas, trans-related or not, but why the hell was he saying all of that just for a (presumably) message about a Firefox plugin???????
I'd really hate to lose !linux@lemmy.ml honestly, it's the largest community for Linux stuff, and a big part of what I spend my time on Lemmy doing. While the stuff Nutomic has said is awful, I'd also really like to see instances of moderation on lemmy.ml that are problematic/transphobic before making the call to defederate.
!linux@programming.dev is within striking distance of beating !linux@lemmy.ml in MAUs
Comm Subscriber count is misleading and can easily be full of dead accounts
That's fair, and you're right that it's possible, but as well it's possible all those accounts come online in a 3-4 month rotation.
The more important point for me though is whether or not there are transphobic moderation instances. I know they can be really abrasive, I've seen the PTB threads, but none of that seems to have been major instances of transphobia that I can tell. I'm all for defederation in those cases when admins refuse to moderate transphobic dogwhistles and the like, I was super supportive of the feddit.uk defed for example. But one admin on a team of many saying something transphobic that's a personal view doesn't quite reach that threshold for me. Especially on a larger instance where I think we have to consider the ramifications of fracturing the community a lot more in my opinion.
Nutomic is a transphobe, but the rest of the admin/mods I haven't noticed any issue on. And if that was the only reason to consider defederation, id be right there with you. But Nutomics bigoted stance is really just one of other major issues with .ml. here's a post I made a few days ago recaping those issues: https://lemmy.world/post/29072279
They do indeed have a history of problematic moderation in general, though I'm not sure about how much they let thinly veiled transphobia slip there. There's not much of it to begin with and can be difficult to spot at first.
I pointed out in the other comment two alternatives to the Linux comm. !linux@programming.dev and !linux@sh.itjust.works, both have decent activity and could be more active if more users started posting.
They both have tens of thousands of less users. As for the moderation, I know they can be bad at that, and difficult to appeal to, but I've yet to see anything transphobic.
Subscriber wise they are vastly different in size, MAUs aren't as drastic. Which is largely what matters.
yea let's defederate.
somthin somthin terf-tankie-whatevr... somthin along those lines... i dun evn kno whad those words mean
This is one of the major reasons I’m supportive of Beehaw migrating platforms
Edit: didn’t realize which com this was on
Beehaw users and communities always give me good vibes. Even before I looked the instance up and saw that good vibes are its thing. And if that entire instance left Lemmy, I think that would be pretty sad because we need all of the good vibes and good people around here that we can get.
Admin Ping for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone to weigh in on this issue with her thoughts and opinions on the matter.
Nutomic was banned from this instance approximately 9 months ago when I first become aware of his stance. However, it's not something I plan on defederating over unless it becomes clear that the instance as a whole is not acting on transphobic content or unless it becomes clear that the community strongly believes that we should defederate.
Yeah that's why I decided to make the thread sooner rather than later. I wanted to get the community's opinions on it and see what they think. I do think there is the risk of Nutomic and others refusing to action transphobic rhetoric similar to his own if it seems "respectful" and "logical".
If that starts happening, we will defederate. But he doesn't seem to be standing in the way of the rest of the instance staff from dealing with it as far as I can tell.
I think defederating almost any instance is dumb, not my instance though so do what you will.
not because its only transphobia, but the obvious misinformation they believe in, much like right wingers do. glad i can block both hexbear and ml instances.
Migrate to piefed. Donate to piefed.
This shit ends when the problematic and cringe Lemmy devs lose the power of owning the platform. There are other mature activitypub projects, and literally all we need to do is support them.
The problem with moving to another server software is that there's a much bigger developer ecosystem around Lemmy. Other projects simply can't match that.
Like, there are multiple Lemmy clients in Google Play and F-Droid, for example. There isn't even one for PieFed in either store.
Why is it not enough to just switch Lemmy server or block ml instances?
Cause devs have contorl over the software and can implement subtle ways to get people think ml instances are the real lemmy. EG suggesting it at the lemmy site for any newcomers, making its threads get slight priority in the feed of every and so on.
What statement about transgender people are we talking about?
Sigh, if you must know, here is the context:
::: spoiler CW: Transphobic talking points https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/e65d59a4-e335-42e1-88e3-f30708116c5b.jpeg :::
I thought more people had seen this since it's older and pinned in MeanwhileOnGrad.
I don’t go to this school, but this line seems irredeemably constructed.
This is baffling. How can you be so bad at communism that you think trans rights are something the bourgeoisie are pushing
Yeah. All transphobe considerations apart (and that's something!), this is a terrible "marxist" take.
he regularly bans people for calling .ml users out on their denial of the Uyghur genocide. he was just one stone throw away from also denying the trans genocide.
this is why authoritarians should never get the benefit of the doubt, they'll never stick with just one dangerous belief.
Would be so good to see
Lemmy.today maybe too
Lemmy.today has already been defederated from blahaj.zone because they had some nasty spam and transphobia problems.
I'm assuming this is under one of the several threads soliciting donations? Just because it doesn't require payment to use doesn't absolve them of any problems people might have that would keep them from handing over money in other capacities.
It's a bad argument yet devs always seem to want to hide behind it. Free things do not allow someone or somemany to just support horrific things and everybody else has to be okay with that.
We should defederate from lemmy.ml
Did you contact their mods or admins? They should have an opportunity to administer appropriate action first. Then, if they are ok with this bullshit, de-fed.
Meanwhile, may I endorse a cool shirt that people might want to wear this summer:
https://www.punkwithacamera.com/products/chaos-marine-trans-people-existing-does-nothing-negative-to-your-life-you-cry-baby-bitch-40k-gutter-press?_pos=3&_sid=9fae89d95&_ss=r
Nutomic is one of the head admins on Lemmy.ml, there are others as well but he's one of the two in charge of the whole place.
Well, in that case, fuck 'em.
That is their admin, and also one of the lead developers of Lemmy.
The other comment that identified them as an admin disappointed me but this one makes me sad.
I'm disappointed in nutomic's statements as well. I won't be donating him any money, but it seems hypocritical to say you won't stop using Lemmy, but you want to defed from .ml.
How? It's free and open source software. This sentiment just seems dumb. Where's the implication that using free and open-source software like Lemmy means you need to support the devs or federate with their server? I see no such rule, and it's not like they can stop or disallow you from using it (nature of open-source).
Anyone can host an instance and choose to run it however they like, the devs have no control in how or why people use Lemmy. It seems like a lot of people have trouble grasping this concept.
I'm not talking about rules. How is using software maintained by nutomic fundamentally different from federating with an instance they run?
The same way that having code on your computer written by stallman doesn't mean you support him or his views. Unless the creator backdoored it to do what they want against your authority, it doesn't mean a whole lot.
OK sure, but how does federating (not even having an account here like me) with his instance mean you support nutomic or his views?
Using a discussion forum moderated by someone is a completely different thing than using code written by them. A mod or admin of an instance has power to shape discussion on that instance.
It's not just about "supporting" him in some abstract sense, it's about potentially exposing blahaj users to the very hate that blahaj is meant to be a safe space from.
When did I say that? I said we should consider defederation as a community because transphobic views of an admin are risky and may lead to inaction towards transphobia on that server. That's the whole reason why we defederated feddit.uk before this, which is why I wanted feedback on this, from the local Blahaj.zone community.