I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
Stern - 12mon
Unless someones pronouns are in their username they're getting a "they" from me. Nothing against xe/xim/xir but i ain't checking every profile of every person I debate about whether Sonic would be tempted or double tempted by the One Ring.
174
katy ✨ - 12mon
i always just use they/them as a default until i know the correct pronouns because it's the most universally genetic anyway :3
78
Gormadt - 12mon
Personally I use they/them until I get corrected on it. It's my default.
It being my default of course means that a lot of the time I'll keep using it even after being corrected. That's not from a position of intolerance though, it's from a position of habit.
And also given the amount of people I engage with online I'm not going to remember every person I interact with, especially given how sparsely I actually respond to people and my response time to people.
Basically y'all are a field of ever changing faces I'll likely never see again let alone IRL, I'm going to stick to they/them for 99% of our interactions.
14
pewgar_seemsimandroid - 12mon
what about, it? though a issue would be sexism as people could use it to call women objects.
1
germanatlas - 12mon
That’s a fair problem, Lemmy and the mobile apps need a feature where you can see peoples pronouns beside their names. Voyager doesn’t even let me see anything besides someones username and instance, even on the profile page so I can’t even look for their pronouns even if I wanted
35
Akrenion @slrpnk.net - 12mon
We got names for that. It is hard adjusting to nonbinary people in a language that does not support nongendered pronouns but names and nicknames are sociacialy accepted and carry the same respect as a correct pronoun.
24
Interstellar_1 - 12mon
You could use Voyager's user tagging feature to tag people with their pronouns
5
RIPandTERROR @sh.itjust.works - 12mon
Hold on, I'm she/they.
Now can we discuss this FASCINATING topic??? Do we think the one ring would hold multiple ring value? Would Sonic turn invisible or just absorb it? How does the ring affect sonic if it is absorbed? What happens if he collects 100 One Rings? I have so many questions.
21
P4ulin_Kbana @lemmy.eco.br - 12mon
(adorable little Timmy voice) "He would turn into Sonic dot E X E and kill us all!!"
10
RIPandTERROR @sh.itjust.works - 12mon
Battle Network intensifies
10
P4ulin_Kbana @lemmy.eco.br - 12mon
Holy crap! A Megaman reference???
8
RIPandTERROR @sh.itjust.works - 12mon
Yeah... Pretty much my whole childhood Special Interest.
9
P4ulin_Kbana @lemmy.eco.br - 12mon
Cool profile picture!
1
Zorsith - 12mon
People remember the existence of the battle network megaman games, not just the platformers!?
8
P4ulin_Kbana @lemmy.eco.br - 12mon
I saw a meme about that game 😅
1
Stern - 12mon
What about would happen if the rings forged for man, dwarves, and elves (19 in all) were collected by Sonic along with the One Ring? Sonic could be like... a super ring wraith.
Then we put the Chaos Emeralds in the mix, and things get extra spicy.
8
Xtallll - 12mon
It really depends on which sonic we are talking about, SEGA Genius Sonic, Sonic Adventures Sonic, one of the western animation Sonics, Anime Sonic, Live Action Sonic? If it's Archie Comics Sonic then the power scale goes right out the window.
Is the One Ring even categorically different from power rings?
2
MBM @lemmings.world - 12mon
blahaj.zone is better about it, but much of Lemmy even just defaults to "he"
11
ThunderWhiskers @lemmy.world - 12mon
This is the only reasonable way to handle this situation. I'm all about making sure people are comfortable, but making-up words and then getting offended when people don't use them properly is bonkers. I truly don't mean to offend anyone, but this is getting out of hand.
2
erotador - 12mon
I love how this gets posted for community members, in a meta community, talking about how to engage with our space to not get banned, and then every loser from all comes in here like "umm actually you can't police my speech and umm pronoun bad" and promptly gets banned for being transphobic and breaking the rules that this post said will be enforced.
the mods and admins are doing a good job here, thanks for all your hard work you put in to make one of my favorite spaces on the internet as wonderful as it is.
132
Rozaŭtuno - 12mon
Won't somebody think of the transphobic cishet men?
Like moths to a light bulb, it would be funny if the banned folks' behavior wasn't steeped in hatred
18
mindbleach @sh.itjust.works - 12mon
The admin's chosen examples, in this thread, include demanding people use a slur, if that's what some rando insists you insert, instead of the "they" that should work for any human being.
It's really fucking difficult to argue 'that absolutist or-else seems like a poor idea' without sounding wishy-washy - or catching a boot in the ass.
8
erotador - 12mon
look the whole point of this thread is that if you didn't want to respect somebody's pronouns then just don't interact with them or report them if you think they are genuinely trolling, not encourage them. if you don't do that so your giving trolls what they want and hurting trans people who do identify with those pronouns.
20
Coskii - 12mon
Coskiis' stance on pronouns is very simple. Coskii will respect anyones pronouns up until those pronouns are more complicated than a beings name. At which point Coskii uses the beings name instead of any pronouns. Pronouns are meant to be a conversational shortcut. If a shortcut is not being made, Coskii does not feel the need to use pronouns.
Neopronouns are (generally) not more complicated than a beings name. Exceptions do exist.
Writing a message without using pronouns for explicit understanding of how and why pronouns exist in English in the first place, including personal pronouns, is certainly a mood. The flow of sentences is somewhere between legal and caveman. Not using pronouns leaves no wiggle room for any interpretation on the subject being discussed, however the lack of personal pronouns means Coskii must always refer to Coskii as Coskii. Thank goodness Coskii is not a terribly long name.
68
max - 12mon
questopm for coskii: i has 3 character name, would coskii pick to using just max or he hims orboth meows? a lso woild coskii use they thems for max ? (like if didnt know max preferres hehims)
9
Coskii - 12mon
For Max, I would use he/hims, they/thems, or whatever other pronouns Max would prefer. Max is a shortcut in and of itself. Maxwell, Maximilian, Maxine, or Maximus can all be Max.
If Max were to decide that Maxs' pronouns were Maxillaries/Maximilleficint, I would at that point likely just refer to Max as Max. As at that point I feel that what has been made are no longer pronouns, but situational proper nouns.
By a much more extreme example, if Max has a flowchart/spreadsheet of pronouns that are time/date sensative, such as changing pronouns according to the current astrological sign + day of the week/phase of the moon, Max is being called Max.
22
Sasha [They/Them] - 12mon
I know Coskii meant it as a counter example, but time dependant pronouns kinda kicks ass ngl
I agree it would be hard as hell to use and I'd probably default to some shortcut too tbh, but it's a cool concept.
5
Coskii - 12mon
They certainly do have an appeal, and ideally it's fine. Realistically though there's a mental limit to the number of those flowcharts a single person can be expected to learn and follow.
I could see a high fantasy setting where an entire culture followed a single chart and it would be fine.. But at the same time I've literally seen players fail to start a sentence with their own name and title (for court record keeping reasons).
12
starelfsc2 @sh.itjust.works - 12mon
How do you reconcile this with people wanting to be called longhand versions of their names? ex: John wants to be called Johnathan, we would respect that, but if John says their pronouns are Johnathan/ Johnithian, would you still call them John?
4
Coskii - 12mon
I understand the question you are attempting to ask. However within this example if John decided that Johnathon/Johnithian are what John would like as pronouns, but somehow is simultaneously fine with being called John as a name.. I believe you would find most people would use John rather than similar and longer names as pronouns (to avoid confusion mostly). If John prefers to be referred to as Johnathon, then most people would follow that or split off entirely and pick up a nickname.
Idealogically anyone should be able to use whatever pronouns they'd like with no rules, limits, or caveats.
Realistically (for now/me), my social interactions are not high enough on my layers of priority, particularly with new groups, that I would consider the need to commit most or really any of anyones' pronouns to memory. As using those pronouns would require me to speak about someone other than myself, to someone who is not the direct recipient of those words. Being the hermit that I am, my comments throughout nearly the entirety of my time on Lemmy or other online social spaces reaching back to nearly the beginning of my time online does not need or use third person pronouns an absolutely vast amount of those interactions in that time.
As a completely off topic anecdote, the only time I can remember using third person pronouns semi often was while on a forum for the original halo game in which I'd attempt to decipher the horrendous typos and extra keystrokes of people I can only assume were younger children asking questions about the game.
11
max - 12mon
thamks coskii!! meow :3
3
nikki - 12mon
i don't get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that
it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn't be more complicated than that
62
dandelion (she/her) - 12mon
this exactly, there are already rules against trolling, and for the trolls who haven't tipped their hand yet, the block button works great; one reason for this kind of trolling can be to incite division that gatekeeping rules would create - blocking a troll until they show their hand feels like a small price to pay to avoid that, and I'm proud of admins that are wise enough to understand this
1
visc @lemmy.world - 12mon
If we have to have gender-specific pronouns, sure. While well-intentioned, that approach will never be perfect, it’s STILL categorising people into smaller and smaller groupings in contexts where categorisation is unnecessary. We’re jumping through linguistic loops so complicated that we need cue-cards for, when we could just use gender-neutral pronouns universally.
Bespoke pronouns are also only a “solution” in English, which (mostly) has no gender-specific suffixes for nouns. In the spirit of inclusivity German has recently misguidedly settled on just repeating the noun with male and female suffixes, “I have to go to the hairdresser or hairdresseress”. Unarguably more quantitatively inclusive, this grammatical monstrosity is also more severely excluding people that fit in neither category. The answer isn’t “everyone should additionally specify their own suffixes so we can list off more variations” but rather to stop caring what gender cuts your hair altogether. Hairdresser can be a gender-neutral word. Here’s to them.
60
prole - 12mon
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren't genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the "one joke" conservatives have ("hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter").
Obviously I can't say for sure that's what is happening, but I've read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn't being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I'd never purposely insult this person by calling them "him" or "her," but they'll remain a "they" to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with "neopronouns" (as far as I understand it).
55
Strawberry - 12mon
I know a few neopronoun users and some are fine with they/them, some are just worn down into accepting they/them, and some really do not like they/them
31
Ada - 12mon
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren't genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people
Ok, lets say that this happens.
That doesn't mean that the correct response is to invalidate neopronouns. If that's literally the goal of a troll, then saying "You're a troll, I'm not going to use your pronouns" is literally what they want.
But I will also suggest you read up on Isabel Fall, to see why even the attack helicopter pronoun meme isn't always a troll, and how the community itself can become harmful to its own members when it turns on them
26
Sasha [They/Them] - 12mon
It doesn't really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it's not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow "discredit" me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.
Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn't also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.
23
prole - 12mon
It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I'm not sure I support is indulging people's possible mental illness by pretending it's ok that they believe they're a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
I'm really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that's just not the same thing and I don't believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone's gender to be "unicorn." Because unicorns aren't real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.
I'm sure everyone will tell me how I'm wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.
When people on the left legitimize these people's obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, "litter boxes in schools" things in many people's minds. It does more harm than good.
44
WoodScientist @lemmy.world - 12mon
Seriously. I'm fine with neopronouns that relate to the actual gender binary or spectrum. Something that says you're male, female, somewhere in between, some oscillating state along the spectrum, or even a pronoun saying you don't exist along the spectrum at all. But the key distinction here is that any neopronoun must relate back to the male/female gender spectrum. Otherwise you're not describing gender, you are describing personality traits. Every personality trait and characteristic is not a gender.
18
nzeayn @lemmy.world - 12mon
so we're back to gender being indistinguishable from biologial sex, and there being only two settings with a option for some mixing of the parts on occasion? every single fucking time gender comes up we end up back here.
4
KillingAndKindess - 12mon
This "summary" you have proposed is not an accurate represntation of what the other person in this thread is arguing.
11
lad - 12mon
I don't quite understand your point, how can a pronoun denote that one is 'somewhere in between male and female' or even express more complex state as in your example? The idea looks impossible to implement to me, an example would definitely help
2
zqps - 12mon
The umbrella term for this is nonbinary, and people often use they, or if they use neopronouns it's something like xir.
The parent commenter's point is that nonbinary identities typically relate back to the conventional gender spectrum in some way, whereas dragon does not and seems more like a fursona or character trait thing.
This is not made easier by the fact that "dragon" is a proper noun, and in fiction there are male and female dragons.
9
lad - 12mon
Yeah, when we get this specific example it does seem off. But if I were to choose some invented pronoun to show that I identify as ¾ male the pronoun itself will not convey that meaning even if it literally would be th¾y, that's what my question of what are the examples was about
1
Dragon Rider (drag) - 12mon
Men are as made up as unicorns, but we all respect men's gender identities, and we should.
13
frostysauce @lemmy.world - 12mon
What I'm not sure I support is indulging people's possible mental illness by pretending it's ok that they believe they're a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
Good thing no one asked you.
6
Lucy [she/faer] - 12mon
I like how you used arguments that were/are used by T-exclusive LGB folks to dehumanize a different marginalized group and Lemmy users just ate it up.
It makes a mockery of real [gender issues | issues homosexuals deal with]. I fully support anyone who wants to [be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders | live openly with their partner of the same sex]. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe [they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy | can just change their sex to the opposite].
You even used the "they're just mentally ill" argument against them, you don't even try to hide that you're just riding a wave of what's socially accepted already and what's not yet.
I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders.
Can you list all these genders you accept so I know which ones are pure fantasy for you? Y'know, mere twenty years ago most people wouldn't say more than two of them.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real
"Men" and "women" are just social roles made up in the Stone Age and changed somewhat during the centuries of human history, that are just so happened to be bound to our genitals. There's nothing real about it.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community.
Are we politicians or what? Why should we make our identity 'presentable' for bigots?
5
koper @feddit.nl - 12mon
The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It's because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.
24
WoodScientist @lemmy.world - 12mon
In other words, the correct response to someone demanding you call them what is almost certainly a troll neopronouns is to block them. Or, the equivalent in the real world is, "I'm not going to misgender you. I'm going to tell you to fuck off and never talk to me again. If that really is your gender, I guess I don't like associating with people of that gender. Goodbye."
6
skulbuny @sh.itjust.works - 12mon
What's the worst thing that will happen if an obviously moronic masculine-presenting person says "hurr durr my pronouns are balls/sack" and you do what they ask and use those pronouns? Will they play along? Will they be offended? What's a desirable outcome? What's an undesirable outcome?
19
prole - 12mon
I was specifically talking about a user here who refers to themselves as a dragon, speaks in the third person calling themselves a dragon each sentence, insists that everyone they interact with on here also refers to them that way (also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.
I wouldn't say I have a problem with the concept of neopronouns as a whole, though that's more because I just haven't thought enough about it to have an informed opinion.
But, to answer your question with respect to the behavior of the user I was referring to:
For transphobic people who are pushing an anti-trans agenda to gullible idiots who are already, at the very least, borderline homophobic, it legitimizes all of those "libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids' schools!" trans panic, bullshit.
It shows that there are people on the left who are willing to take it a few steps too far, and indulge in people's possible mental illness where they believe their gender is a non-existent, fantasy creature. Something that's literally not possible as it is not on the human gender spectrum. At least not as I understand it.
I'm sure people will tell me how I'm wrong.
25
Ada - 12mon
Pronouns are a way of helping us find our identity and sharing it with the world. They tell other people who we are, and our relationship with our identity. Some people use them as an act of empowerment and reclamation. Some people use them to actively break down the normalisation of the gender binary as the default/only way of thinking about gender. Other people use them because it's just the best way they have of describing their internal experience.
Which is a lot of words to say that you don't know why someone is using neopronouns or what their intent is. All you can use is their actions. And if what they do is troll and stir up trouble with their actions, report that, because that's the bit that matters, not the fact that they're using pronouns you find challenging, which may be the very point.
it legitimizes all of those "libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids' schools!" trans panic, bullshit.
You've got work to do on your understanding of how hatred works. No one hates us because we used a weird pronoun. They hate us because they've been taught to hate us, and ultimately, it doesn't matter what we do or how perfect we are, they will find an excuse to manifest that hate.
There is no such thing as a person who would have supported us, but choses not to, because they don't like unusual pronouns. There are people who support us and are uncomfortable with unusual pronouns, but someone who drops their support over that, was going to drop their support anyway over something, once they found an excuse that let them tell themselves that they're not the bad guy in their story.
You can not win over hate by being on your best behaviour and existing on the terms of people who hate us. It has never worked and never will.
22
skulbuny @sh.itjust.works - 12mon
No, I am sure in a case by case basis you are right and that seems like an exception to the rule though. I think the spirit of the topic is that we should just use pronouns on this instance even more common neopronouns like xir. My personal opinion is I think "they" is probably a fine blanket term for all gender neutrality, but that will likely "other" them into the bucket of "they"... so I can see how this is a tricky situation.
To call this a leftist thing is interesting though. We are discussing humans, not politics. I didn't bring it up. My acceptance of all people other than me drives me to leftism, not the other way around.
Honestly, a general rule of thumb"act in good faith" is probably enough. Not hard to enforce and usually a small enough offense is enough to deter most.
8
SoleInvictus - 12mon
People here are really overcomplicating this.
Step 1: Treat everyone with respect, including respecting their communication preferences. If it becomes obvious they're not being serious and/or respectful themselves (ball/sack, dog/shit), then simply disengage and report. Their bad behavior doesn't justify anyone else's bad behavior in response.
Step 2: If there's only suspicion their requests/preferences are somehow a form of trolling, harassment, or the like, either...
2.1: Respectfully ask non-accusatory questions for clarification, then return to step 1
Or
2.2: Disengage, report to a mod, and let them handle this shit
Rinse and repeat.
There are two overwhelmingly likely results to this little workflow.
A troll is treated with kindness and respect until it's found they're trolling, after which engagement ceases and mods have to deal with their shit. Remember: trolls get off on watching other people's outrage. No response = no outrage = an unsatisfying trolling session.
Someone who is not trolling but is having a difficult time being understood is treated with kindness and respect.
6
pixeltree - 12mon
I don't care for neopronouns, but it also doesn't matter what I think. If it's REALLY a problem for me, like that person who's gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won't refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person's gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)
50
Fénix (they/he) - 12mon
I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn't make that person my god, and I shouldn't be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don't follow. I may choose to follow other religions' conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person's pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.
23
Grail (capitalised) - 12mon
I don't think using someone's preferred pronoun capitalisation is a worship thing. On My antirealist discord server, capitalised pronouns are the default. If you want lowercase pronouns, you have to pick a role that says so.
I've met people who thought capitalised pronouns were a matter of religion. But I've also met people who think "he" and "she" pronouns are a matter of religion. They think their gender identities are handed down to them by Elohim, and refusing to use someone's god-given pronouns is a form of disrespect against their god. They say "My god doesn't make mistakes", and think their religious beliefs are a reason to misgender people. I think that if treating people decently means decoupling pronouns from religion, then everyone should decouple pronouns from religion.
7
gmtom @lemmy.world - 12mon
Your last point raises a good question.
Mods, if someone says Their pronouns are supposed to be capitalised, will we be called for it if we don't capitalise Them?
14
Feathercrown @lemmy.world - 12mon
Me omw to make all of my pronouns the full transcript of the Bee Movie
Actually, would that be covered under this rule? Like I would be trolling if I did that, but under a true all-acceptance policy you couldn't selectively not use those pronouns
9
lad - 12mon
I think at that point one can choose to word sentences to not use pronouns at all
6
Sasha [They/Them] - 12mon
Neopronouns are valid as hell and all these people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are by definition transphobic.
You cannot claim to support trans people while declaring a subgroup to be invalid because you think they're not doing it the right way. You are not an ally unless you support all trans people, people who use neopronouns are not the problem, you are.
Policing trans people makes you a transphobe.
44
lolola - 12mon
I've spent what feels like half an hour scrolling through comment threads to figure out what the hell happened to lead to this. Is there some kind of explainer somewhere? Is there a key thread that I missed somehow? Should I even be asking?
36
klemptor @startrek.website - 12mon
There's a user called dragonfucker whose gender is apparently "dragonfucker", who insists on the neopronoun "drag", and who eagerly takes offense whenever misgendered, whether the misgendering was intentional or not. Some people understandably believe this user is a troll.
70
Dragon Rider (drag) - 12mon
Dragon Rider, actually, not dragonfucker. And drag isn't mad that you misremembered.
27
lad - 12mon
Some Lemmy clients show handle instead of username, that's why some users may never have seen 'Drag Rider (drag)' at all
15
Feathercrown @lemmy.world - 12mon
I haven't seen them take offense very often
13
Dragon Rider (drag) - 12mon
How dare you call drag 'them'!!! >:(
😂😂😂 just kidding, drag doesn't act like that. Thank you for sticking up for drag.
12
Opisek @lemmy.world - 12mon
I love for drag to have the courage and space to express dragself, so it's always heartbreaking when people are hating on drag for no reason instead of just engaging with the content of drag's comments and having meaningful discussions. Stay true to dragself and don't let others make drag change. Thank you to the instance admins for standing up for drag.
3
SoleInvictus - 12mon
Except they don't eagerly take offense to being mispronouned. Most of the time, when I've seen it, they don't even say anything.
8
Taleya @aussie.zone - 12mon
A user called drag can sometimes rub people the wrong way. Sometimes it's drag's actions. Sometimes it's the fact drag refers to dragself with pronouns using various permutations of drag.
The former is a valid reason for contention. The latter isn't.
31
JackbyDev - 12mon
I always thought Drag was speaking in the third person. Did I misunderstand something? Edit: yes, I did
3
VindictiveJudge - 12mon
Drag does both, as demonstrated in this very thread.
4
Coskii - 12mon
This is more of a public service announcement style of post than a deeply intentioned 'after incident response' post.
While I'm sure there have been plenty of incidents based on some of the other comments, there hasn't been some singular massive event to cause this to happen. If anything it's more of a reminder that one purpose of blahaj.zone is for inclusivity and acceptance. Excluding people because of some indirect words is not the goal.
17
lolola - 12mon
Thanks for clarifying.
7
yuri @pawb.social - 12mon
i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.
reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.
35
Squorlple @lemmy.world - 12mon
Your intentions are valiant. Can I ask for clarification with one section to ensure I don’t error within this instance’s rules?
A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling.
We’ve probably all seen the “one joke” of transphobes/nonbinaryphobes attempting a parody of preferred pronouns/neopronouns by choosing arbitrary or intentionally harmful terms. This link contains some examples of what I’m referring to:
In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise? As an example from the linked video, if I refer to Ted Cruz on this instance, must I use the neopronouns kiss/my/ass to be within the rules? (assuming Ted Cruz had yet to state a revision of pronouns)
In a more extreme case, let’s say somebody named User1 genuinely uses [neopronoun 1]/[neopronoun 2]/[neopronoun 3], which we understand to be totally fine. If a troll account named User2 joined this instance with undisclosed malicious intent and stated that their pronouns were [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real], should the users/admins/mods each take that all on face value and refer to User2 with [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real]?
In short, do the rules require that we refer to someone by the neopronouns that they state even if the surrounding context strongly suggests that they are a transphobic/nonbinaryphobic troll and that their statement of their pronouns is disingenuous and intended to be a harmful ridicule to transgender and nonbinary people?
When I see that somebody uses neopronouns and they appear to be in earnest, I respect and adhere to that and I appreciate that you do too. I do worry that there may arise some trolls who misuse our benevolent intentions and who attempt to mock and insult us by taking advantage of generous good faith and ultimately make things worse for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to address this and watching out for everybody.
31
Xtallll - 12mon
You don't need to use any pronouns to block and report.
39
Ada - 12mon
Exactly this
16
Ada - 12mon
In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise?
If that person is trolling, then report their behaviour, not their pronouns. The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. And don't interact with them in the mean time. If their goal is invalidating the idea of neopronouns, the correct response isn't for you to invalidate the use of neopronouns as a result of their actions.
But even "attack helicopter" and the like... If you're not familiar with it, look up the story of Isabel Fall. She was almost driven to suicide, she changed her name, and may even have detransitioned as a result of the fallout she received from a story she wrote about the attack helicopter pronouns. Her intentions were good, it was an honest act of reclamation, but people were so upset at the mere idea of her story, that her own community turned on her. Her story looked like the story a troll might have written. But critically, it wasn't a story written by a troll, it was a story written by a trans person trying to find power in a slur that had been levelled against her community.
So until I can sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy, the only thing we can act on is actions. And using neopronouns, even unusual and challenging ones, isn't a trolling action by itself. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.
29
Squorlple @lemmy.world - 12mon
The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned.
If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.
Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion. I obviously cannot source other comments that may have been deleted or removed:
And here are 10 modlog remarks by your instance’s mods pertaining to the contextual behavior of the same user. There are additional modlog remarks by mods of other instances to similar effect. Please do take a look through them all:
2x: Banned: reason: Trolling
Banned: reason: history of misgendering and encouraging suicide
4x Banned: reason: Encouraging suicide, bad faith accusations, moderator harassment. Not Appealable
Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned (edit: clarification: unbanned from the instance). As admin, have you scrutinized your users’ and mods’ listed concerns over this apparent repeat offender prior to now? Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions? I do not expect you to “sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy”, but do you distrust the acuity of your userbase and modteams over and over again? If the user is a troll, you are doing exactly what they want you to do; if the user is not a troll, many people have taken measures to avoid hostility from them. Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?
You will get trolls on this instance. You will get trolls anywhere online. It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.
I had already blocked this user who knows how long ago. Their behavior doesn’t affect me anymore. I’m also not part of a demographic that needs this instance. Go ahead and ban me for speaking out for those who do need this instance. But this user —and any other users whom the admin team shies away from calling trolls— they will affect the new people who come to this instance who do need a safe place, and those new users will be deterred from here by the hostility and unfettered trolls that are tolerated.
21
Ada - 12mon
Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion.
None of that is "contextual behaviour". It's literally just people upset by pronouns they find discomforting. Once you remove "Using pronouns I don't like" as a reason, there is nothing else to those posts.
Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned.
Drag was banned from 196 by community mods
Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions?
We have reports, a matrix channel and DMs.
Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?
I haven't seen evidence of other bad behaviour that warrants an instance ban. Drag has stirred up drama, deliberately so, and has received community bans as a result, and I support the rights of the community mods to make that choice. But I've seen no evidence of genuine attempts to encourage others to suicide, or ongoing deliberate misgendering, or anything else that warrants an instance ban. I've seen many accusations of such, but I've not seen any evidence behind the accusations.
If I'm missing some, please drop me a DM or the like.
It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.
A queer instance that gatekeeps queer folk isn't hospitable, protective or empathic.
I am well aware that trolls can slip through and try and stir up drama. I believe that it's worth the risk, because the cost of gatekeeping gender diverse folks self expression isn't a price I'm willing to pay to be troll free. I'd rather the odd troll slip through the cracks and get dealt with than default to gatekeeping.
16
Squorlple @lemmy.world - 12mon
None of that is "contextual behaviour". It's literally just people upset by pronouns they find discomforting. Once you remove "Using pronouns I don't like" as a reason, there is nothing else to those posts.
No. Your paragraph is wholly false and you are making these claims in bad faith. I cannot read you the user comments and spell out their meanings. You act with a prejudice that people can only take umbrage with this user because they use neopronouns and you willfully and selectively reject any claims of impropriety that the user may have committed elsewhere.
yet they remain unbanned.
Drag was banned from 196 by community mods
I meant from unbanned from the instance. I’ve edited my comment for clarity.
I’ve seen no evidence of genuine attempts to encourage others to suicide, or ongoing deliberate misgendering, or anything else that warrants an instance ban. I’ve seen many accusations of such, but I’ve not seen any evidence behind the accusations.
So those are instance bannable offenses? Is there a full list beyond just in the instance sidebar? Here are some removed comments from the modlog by the user:
Advocating for suicide/murder: “If you're planning on killing yourself, go buy a gun and take a red hat with you. Drag is serious.”
Explicitly advocating for murder/violence: “Buy a gun. Shoot a red hat. Violence is the answer.”
After cyberstalking and harassing a lemmy.world mod to disrespect the mod’s daughter’s pronouns: “You previously said that you always use gender neutral pronouns to refer to other people. In order to help you with that goal, drag would like to point out that you just used a "she" pronoun, so that you can edit it to a "they" and maintain the standard you set for yourself.“
Racism: “Drag thinks Germans just like genocide in general.”
Advocating for bestiality: “Drag likes dragon dick and doesn't have a problem with anybody who does. That's clearly some kind of non-dragon-fucking person. Whoever they are, they suck. Love is love and loving dragons is okay. Drag doesn't have a problem with sucking any kind of cock, as long as it's consensual.”
Some mods also believe this user to be a new account by a troll named droneright. I’m not going to link to every comment and post that still stands that points to the gestalt of the troll’s deception. It’s not gatekeeping to scrutinize somebody’s actions and determine that they are spitting in your face and telling you that it’s raining.
You are being trolled. The user has carefully curated elements of absurdity and inanity separate from a gender identity/expression with the intent to form a mocking caricature of queer and queer-inclusive people and to ruin their safe spaces. Read the comments and read between the lines elsewhere. A server admin needs to have the reading literacy and internet literacy to see this miles before it has gotten to this point.
I’d rather the odd troll slip through the cracks and get dealt with than default to gatekeeping.
You will find your instance overrun with trolls that make the experience intolerable. Other instances will defederate from your instance to avoid the abundance of trolls that you will host. The people who need an inclusive community will lose it.
13
Ada - 12mon
You act with a prejudice that people can only take umbrage with this user because they use neopronouns and you willfully and selectively reject any claims of impropriety that the user may have committed elsewhere.
I have explicitly acknowledged drag deliberately created drama in 196, was banned by the 196 mods, and I support the mods right to make such bans.
What I've said is that I haven't seen evidence of anything warranting an entire instance ban. I've seen people talk about it a lot, but I've not actually seen the evidence myself, and given the ire that drag has stirred up in people, I'm going to need to see it before I act on it.
Other instances will defederate from your instance to avoid the abundance of trolls that you will host.
drag is not based on blahaj zone...
14
SoleInvictus - 12mon
You have the patience of a saint.
9
Squorlple @lemmy.world - 12mon
I've not actually seen the evidence myself
That’s why I said to read through the user’s history and critically consider why the profile expresses the particular things it expresses. Look at the gestalt, not just individual incidences.
drag is not based on blahaj zone...
I know. But other trolls can copy this behavior and infiltrate safe spaces by being hosted on your instance.
7
Draconic NEO - 12mon
I will share that dragonfucker has significantly harassed me and sent death threats toward my way, it was through an alt account so I guess one could say that it could've not been drag, but the circumstances surrounding it were suspicious enough that I'm almost certain that this alt was the same person/dragon as dragonfucker.
The community that was created to harass and target me !fuckdraconicneo@discuss.online along with the alt is gone but since I was pinged on every account and I have email notifications enabled I still do have all the messages I received, as well as screenshots of DMs from the user account, none of them are pretty.
I'm not a fan of gatekeeping people's identities and I REALLY don't think we should do that. I do think we should understand the kind of person drag is though, and acknowledge that these types of things like the death threats, the harassment, and encouragement of suicide have no place here, in a safe space no less.
4
Dragon Rider (drag) - 12mon
Hello, drag can clarify the modlog claims.
Mods think drag is a troll because drag uses neopronouns.
Mods think drag encouraged suicide because after Donald Trump was elected, drag told suicidal trans people it's better to die in battle than to do the fascists' job for them.
Mods think drag misgendered because Flying Squid's daughter wants to use she/they pronouns but he accuses anyone who calls her 'they' of misgendering because he's not a good parent.
You know anyone can create a community on Lemmy and use curl commands to create fake modlogs, right?
12
pewgar_seemsimandroid - 12mon
hmm, could this be patched? or it's used by .ml or grad but it's unlikely so i think it might.
1
Draconic NEO - 12mon
I think drag is talking about using the API or network tab in browser to create bans when a person hasn't posted in a community before, as far as I know there's no way to create fake modlog entries, other than doctoring screenshots of the modlog (something you'll be busted on very quickly) or possibly by screwing with the database as an admin (something that you'll also be busted on since it won't federate).
Comment removals can't be faked or screwed with unless doctored, because the comments removed must actually exist to appear in the log.
4
Jorunn (she/her) - 12mon
For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.
We could:
Not respect them and let people bully neopronoun users
Respect them and not let people bully neopronoun users
Doesn't really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.
27
apotheotic (she/her) - 12mon
Love this, Ada. So nice to see another instance run by caring, respectful folk. Love from beehaw!
Before I curse my worst enemy I will ask their pronouns. Their right to identity is not based on my respect for them.
There's a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it's barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don't even know that their experience isn't universal.
24
koper @feddit.nl - 12mon
I was interested until I saw the author and it clicked. Must be a broken clock situation.
15
Katzastrophe @feddit.org - 12mon
Just because someone might not have the same opinions as you, or even in some cases opinions you consider dead wrong it doesn't mean they are always wrong.
Think of political parties, in one case a party you usually align yourself with makes a terrible decision, and in another case a party you hate makes a decision you would wholeheartedly support. Does that mean your prior preferred party is suddenly on the same level as your hated party? Depends, of course, but we can't deny that we can't expect everyone to share the exact same values as us. Variety is the spice of life, and sometimes even someone we consider to be right/wrong will surprise us in negative or positive ways.
8
TʜᴇʀᴀᴘʏGⒶʀʏ⁽ᵗʰᵉʸ‘ᵗʰᵉᵐ⁾ - 12mon
I've only read a handful of Their articles, but all the ones I've read seem solid. Can I ask what your problem is with Them?
7
Sasha [They/Them] - 12mon
Aside from Them jumping the gun, causing an unwarranted dog piling on a well loved mod of a small community that was essentially a safe space for some, resulting in that user leaving Lemmy and the community completely dying, I have read at least one article of Theirs that called people who did not volunteer for war murderers, or something to that effect, I just remember it being an excessively nasty and unnuanced take.
In another article They also advocated for being generally unlikeable, which had some good points but ultimately goes against everything I think is good about being a leftist.
I recall that in general conversation They were often argumentative and quick to anger too, not someone I ever wanted to interact with, though frankly my memory on that aspect is shaky at best.
7
Draconic NEO - 12mon
I never saw that article before but I do like it, I have noticed that a lot of people who I know that identify as cisgender don't seem to have an internal sense of gender or pay much mind to gender but I didn't think anyone else thought that too. It's nice to see my idea isn't as unpopular as I initially thought.
7
Grail (capitalised) - 12mon
What a great article
6
Katzastrophe @feddit.org - 12mon
Haha, look who it is. Love the article, a few of my friends have realized they also might be agender from it.
It really is, I thought I was one of the only people to think that Agender might be really common but just hidden because many people who don't feel gender can blend in as cis or not even know they're Agender. Obviously we'll probably never really know for sure but I do think it's likely that many of the people out there who don't feel gender or don't think about gender are very likely Agender.
I also saw a meme a while back that said animals are Agender because they don't give so much thought to gender the way humans do.
4
Grail (capitalised) - 12mon
If you like exploring the unknown reaches of identity, I've got some articles I think you'll like.
Thank you, I'll definitely give these a read, they look interesting.
3
running_ragged @lemmy.world - 12mon
Thanks for sharing this. As an older person working to sort out their gender identity later on in life it’s nice to have more ideas to consider.
I’ve wondered if gender identity is a bit like our other senses where we can practice and get better at discerning the signals we’ve always been receiving, but haven’t always known what they mean.
How much is trainable and how much is innate.
Anyway thanks again for sharing this.
6
Grail (capitalised) - 12mon
It sure is trainable to some extent. I didn't think I suffered from gender dysphoria when I first realised I was trans. I was only able to connect with gender euphoria to realise My identity. But after I experimented with My gender and tried on some new pronouns and self-images, I realised I hated being a male. I was miserable, but I wasn't able to see My misery, because I thought it was just life. It's like when someone with tinnitus doesn't even realise they have it, because they've forgotten what silence sounds like. When I started thinking of Myself as trans, I experienced that metaphorical silence, and then I could hear the metaphorical ringing that was My dysphoria.
3
Cassa - 12mon
As always Ada, eloquently put ♥️♥️ thank you!
21
yuri @pawb.social - 12mon
yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao
that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear
21
SoleInvictus - 12mon
To be fair, pugjesus is an asshole about a lot of things, not just drag.
/s
I took a look and this is their normal behavior: just the topic du jour that they can use to whip up drama.
17
yuri @pawb.social - 12mon
i really oughta block that whole comm. there’s something to be said for the value of dissenting opinions, but until they raise a point that isn’t “weird pronouns bad” there’s not a lot there for anyone outside the echo chamber.
i’m starting to think even trying to argue the logic is just an exercise in validating their bullshit when your comments all get dogpiled.
7
Ada - 12mon
Lemmy seems to be getting worse unfortunately :\
16
yuri @pawb.social - 12mon
thanks for being around, ada. the work you do is greatly appreciated, even if it’s not readily apparent all the time.
the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.
You disgust me.
18
Mossy Feathers (She/Her) - 12mon
Damn, it's really weird to see myself getting quoted in a completely different thread, lol. Tbh, I'm not sure I handled myself all that well; however, in my defense, I was really pissed off because it's no where near the first time I've seen people claim an identity was false, nor was it the first time I've seen someone treat pronouns like a reward for good behavior. I don't agree that using "gender" in the way drag was using it is the correct way of using it, it seems like using a hammer on a screw; however, that's not really for me to decide.
Drama subs are kind of a guilty pleasure for me, which was why I was there in the first place (also I browse all). At this point though, I've blocked pugjesus and I hope to never see their ass again. Probably gonna go back and block a bunch of the transphobes effectively saying that having your identity/pronouns respected are a privilege and not a right as well. What a bunch of gross, toxic individuals. It also makes me sad and disappointed. Lemmy used to be fun. It's not really fun anymore.
11
yuri @pawb.social - 12mon
it’s raw, and it’s real, and i’m SO glad you typed it out because it’s eloquating some shit that’s been bouncing around my head all nebulous and untouchable like.
and yeah pugjesus is a punk ass. mf has more than triple dipped on being an asshole in just the past 24 hours. anyone who isn’t already in that particular brand of echo chamber would be best off keeping as far away as possible, those kinda toxins are bad for the spirit :/
7
RedSeries (she/her) - 12mon
I definitely didn't handle myself well in response to this either, so please give yourself some grace. The amount of cis people who were trying to assert that disrespecting drag's identity was the right thing to do was huge and wildly disappointing. It's hard to call any of them allies. I've been blocking a bunch as well.
3
Unruffled [they/them] - 12mon
Hi Ada, I stepped in to lock the post and put a stop to the drama, but maybe I should have acted sooner. Our admins have got no problem with respecting drag's pronouns or anyone else's. The social conservatives seem emboldened since Trump was re-elected imo. It sucks.
7
Norah (pup/it/she) - 12mon
You literally didn't though? You locked someone else's post, but not PugJesus' post. You also regurgitated the same stupid line about "dragon fucker isn't a gender" that literally has nothing to do with drag's pronouns. Way to try and curry favour like you care when you clearly, in fact, do not.
7
Unruffled [they/them] - 12mon
This is a bad faith comment tbh. I locked the second post on this topic soon after I was messaged about it. It didn't seem as heated as the other post I previously locked which is why I'd left it unlocked originally. Perhaps it took a while for that lock to be federated to the blajah instance?
And for the record, that's not what I said, you are (inaccurately) paraphrasing. I do think that drag is a irredeemable troll, but I have always used drag's pronouns to the best of my ability. Just because drag might be trans doesn't excuse drag's behaviour towards other users. We adopt a "fuck around and find out" rule towards trolls and drag fucked around one time too many.
I don't have any opinion on the validity or otherwise of neo-pronouns, I'm not interested in litigating the topic because the discussion always turns toxic - I simply reminded our members to respect pronouns even if they don't agree with or understand them.
If my actions seem like "currying favour" to you, then I can only say that you seem to be determined to take offense.
5
Norah (pup/it/she) - 12mon
"paraphrasing"
yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i'm just trying to take offence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag's pronouns shouldn't factor into that.
in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus' post, which you hadn't locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.
7
eya @lemmy.dbzer0.com - 12mon
It's sad to see transphobia being perpetuated on this instance (dbzer0), by an admin nonetheless. Guess it's time to switch instances.
7
Norah (pup/it/she) - 12mon
thank you for replying to their message as well, i really didn't have the spoons too. you're more than welcome here at blahaj 💜
7
Unruffled [they/them] - 12mon
“paraphrasing”
yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i’m just trying to take offence. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
The CW differentiates between "misgendering" as usually understood by mainstream folks (i.e., calling a trans-man a woman or vice versa) and the more inclusive concept of "misgendering" (maybe I used the wrong term here??) Ada posted about which includes imaginary identities and pronouns, such as fantasy creatures etc. I think the first meaning is widely accepted (at least among social progressives) but the second is perhaps not, which is why I made the distinction. If you can suggest a more appropriate wording for the CW that will be understood by most folks then I'll be happy to consider revising the wording. I also reminded our users to respect pronouns no matter what they are, even if they don't understand or agree with them.
you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag’s pronouns shouldn’t factor into that.
FYI, I'm not in fact a mod of that community. I only stepped in because I got a lot of reports about this topic and thought it was going off the rails. And generally I prefer to leave user comments intact in that community rather than removing them, since I think it's useful to keep a record of the discussion for future reference. Thus the CW approach on this occasion.
in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus’ post, which you hadn’t locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.
The actual chain of events was 1. receiving a bunch of reports about one post (the first one I locked); 2. coming across this post and expressing solidarity with Ada; 3. receiving a message about the second post; and 4. locking that post too. PugJesus was in fact active in both posts and there was a lot of topic overlap.
I'm sorry I didn't act sooner, but it's xmas and I have other IRL stuff going on. I'm also sorry you folks at blajah have received so much abuse simply for trying to be an inclusive and safe space for trans people. I do my best to be supportive of trans folks and of your instance, but I totally acknowledge I'm not an expert on the topic and may have worded things poorly. If you want to attack me for that, then go ahead I guess, but on a personal note, I am a 50yo gay man who has also faced discrimination and abuse in my life, so please have some consideration for my feelings too, because being (imo) unfairly accused of being transphobic is hurtful. Thanks.
3
eya @lemmy.dbzer0.com - 12mon
Misgendering is misgendering, fullstop, no distinction to be made. They aren't "imaginary identities" they are just identities. It's sad to see transphobia being spouted by an instance admin of what I formerly considered a safe instance to be apart of.
By considering invalidating neopronouns to not be "misgendering" you are essentially invalidating those identities, and certainly doing so by calling them "imaginary".
Additionally, perpetuating transphobia at all is disgusting. There shouldn't be a cw, it should be removed, and the user should be banned. The modlog has logs if seeing the context is needed.
7
Ada - 12mon
Thank you! It's been eye opening to see just how many of them there are active on lemmy :/
5
Norah (pup/it/she) - 12mon
I want to share the above person's comment regarding drag while locking that post:
As well, the post that user locked was not the main post, that was left unlocked for at least another 12 hours. There were two.
I didn't want to report this as I didn't want to face repercussion from moderators/admin on that instance.
4
Sasha [They/Them] - 12mon
Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I've literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I'm including my own community I run outside of lemmy.
Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it's incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.
20
DingDongDitch - 12mon
Without ever making a post on the Lemmy, I have donated to this instance every month for well over a year, amounting to hundreds. Your principled moderation is why I am here. I will forever be grateful for the space you've given us
19
koper @feddit.nl - 12mon
Very true. I do hope that the one or two trolls who instigated this post stop getting free rein to start drama. Pronouns should be respected, narcissism should not.
I've had to deal with a lot of narcissistic people in my life, I really don't like narcissists.
There's a big difference between pride and narcissism. Though they can easily go hand I'm hand.
13
Grail (capitalised) - 12mon
As far as I'm aware, the difference is that the word "narcissism" is historically associated with asexuals and the mentally ill, while the word "pride" has no overt political connotations.
As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don't want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to "they" unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I'm neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
14
spujb @lemmy.cafe - 12mon
is there a definitive list of pronouns?
No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told
This is a good strategy :)
once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts
This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135
how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.
9
inb4_FoundTheVegan @lemmy.world - 12mon
is there a definitive list of pronouns
Not really, there are lists of the more well known ones. But they absolutely are not definitive. Much like gender, prounons are a social construct. It's just a quickie handhold to communicate how that particular person sees themselves. They're essentially stereotypes of stereotypes that mold and change over time. Which is why what's considered women's work (cooking) and men's work (grilling) have shifted over time. Redneck, goth, jock & etc are all different forms of gender because it loosely describes how that person presents to the world. So a new gender/prounons is born, valid and inherently correct the moment someone says it. Gender is a social performance and there is no way to do it wrong.
Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
When I was in the early days of my transition, I literally asked the same thing! Good question! You're right, to put your new name/prounons into your name is inherently sorta doxxing yourself. You're unfortunately entirely correct that it's a risk depending on where you live. However the answer is also unfortunate and that's its worth the risk to most people. All of our situations are different, but without question there are trans folk, out or closeted, that do not get to use their chosen name/prounons in real life. If they don't use it online, the they effectively don't get to be correctly identified in any part or their life. It's out of desperation to be validated in some way. It's a bummer, but I get it. I'm lucky and privileged enough to be out full time, so I don't use my name online. But I'm absolutely not gonna judge how another person gets through the day.
6
Sir_Premiumhengst @lemmy.world - 12mon
How Can Pronous Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real? /s
But actually, s/he & they are pronouns I'll use in everyday speech. Anything else and I tend to favor a person's name; it's just... You know, easier to facilitate a conversation that way.
Edit: oh I see this is from blåhaj. Nvm. I stand by my comment but I see I'm not the target audience.
13
spujb @lemmy.cafe - 12mon
Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.
12
kittenzrulz123 - 12mon
My problem is the intense amount of trolls and the harm that they've caused. Ive seen this instance devolve into trolls, counter trolls (trolls), alt accounts (trolls), mods (myself included) not being able to keep up, and admins not doing enough (imo).
12
Ada - 12mon
The alternative, is a queer instance that is built from the ground up with gatekeeping baked in to its core. You may be ok with that. I am not. This instance will never be that.
15
Draconic NEO - 12mon
I'm in agreement with this, but I think people should complain about the trolling behavior and the abusive behavior, and not about the pronouns, because the trolling and abusive behavior is the real problem. Not people using different pronouns or having non-standard identities.
10
Lily [she/her, pup/pup's] - 12mon
and admins not doing enough
perhaps there needs to be more admins or something dunno just a thought *cough*
1
kittenzrulz123 - 12mon
I completely agree
2
inb4_FoundTheVegan @lemmy.world - 12mon
100%.
You don't get to decide if another person's identity is valid or not. That's literally just transphobia, and perpetuating that inside our own community is truscum behavior. An individual person has the final word on who they are, what they're called and how to correctly refer to them.
12
AItoothbrush - 12mon
My only problem is when i use singular they them for someone and they have a problem with it. I speak hungarian natively which has no grammatical gender nor gendered pronouns and it makes so much more sense. The whole thing about gender neutral language doesnt exist. But what makes me mad is that other languages that have genders solved it while english is still messing around and every time i use singular they or dude/guy as gender neutral, someone with neopronouns or a right winger has to point out how im incorrect. This is of course not pointed at those who use neopronouns, just as someone who speaks a language where pronouns dont matter it feels kinda useless.
11
Ada - 12mon
You're allowed to make mistakes and find it difficult. You're not allowed to decide that you're not even going to try. If you are at that point, your options are to get it right, or to not engage with the person in question.
13
katy ✨ - 12mon
take note bluesky this is how to build trust and safety 💙
and it's another reason why i love it here 💞
10
TriflingToad @sh.itjust.works - 12mon
Very good post, I agree with everything said.
However I have a followup issue, I use Voyager primarily for Lemmy. I don't have any way to see bios (to my knowledge) in the app, so therefore I cannot see pronouns unless they are in someone's username. I have one of the "user tags" set up for drag specifically and will for any other neopronouns needed, but that requires someone correcting me before I can create it.
My question is, is there a way that this issue can be overcome? Id prefer to not move apps if it's possible as i like Voyagers UI but I will if I must.
Also, this is not really related, but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj? I heard that there was some drama but I can't figure out anything other than the NCD@SJW community mod having beef with blahaj, but not anything between the SJW instance itself.
10
Ada - 12mon
The rule isn't "Get peoples pronouns correct 100% of the time, never make mistakes, or get banned". It's "Respect peoples pronouns"
You're allowed to make mistakes. You're allowed to not know. What you're not allowed to do is invalidate and erase the pronouns of people who have made them clear.
but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj
It's news to me!
26
TriflingToad @sh.itjust.works - 12mon
ah I see. Thanks for the reply!
It's news to me!
Well, in that case I assume the 'drama' was the issue from noncredibledefense and someone just got that and ShitJustWorks confused lol
I was on Tumblr at the time but I didn't realize my fellow Tumblrinas invented the noun-self pronouns
5
Dragon Rider (drag) - 12mon
It's a new pronoun.
4
RedSeries (she/her) - 12mon
My interactions with people complaining about this rule led me to delete my .world account and dust this one off from way back when I first joined Lemmy and was trying to figure things out. Regardless of the behavior of a person, I staunchly will never purposefully misgender them/use the wrong pronouns. If I do it to someone else, then I'm telling the world that it's okay to dismiss anyone's identity given the right justification. And that's patently wrong and shitty.
I'd rather be part of an instance that protects identity, that is made for minorities and those who are often abused by the heteronormative world. Thank you for enforcing this and making a space where I can feel safe as a trans woman.
ada in main
Neopronouns are not trolling
I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
Unless someones pronouns are in their username they're getting a "they" from me. Nothing against xe/xim/xir but i ain't checking every profile of every person I debate about whether Sonic would be tempted or double tempted by the One Ring.
i always just use they/them as a default until i know the correct pronouns because it's the most universally genetic anyway :3
Personally I use they/them until I get corrected on it. It's my default.
It being my default of course means that a lot of the time I'll keep using it even after being corrected. That's not from a position of intolerance though, it's from a position of habit.
And also given the amount of people I engage with online I'm not going to remember every person I interact with, especially given how sparsely I actually respond to people and my response time to people.
Basically y'all are a field of ever changing faces I'll likely never see again let alone IRL, I'm going to stick to they/them for 99% of our interactions.
what about, it? though a issue would be sexism as people could use it to call women objects.
That’s a fair problem, Lemmy and the mobile apps need a feature where you can see peoples pronouns beside their names. Voyager doesn’t even let me see anything besides someones username and instance, even on the profile page so I can’t even look for their pronouns even if I wanted
We got names for that. It is hard adjusting to nonbinary people in a language that does not support nongendered pronouns but names and nicknames are sociacialy accepted and carry the same respect as a correct pronoun.
You could use Voyager's user tagging feature to tag people with their pronouns
Hold on, I'm she/they.
Now can we discuss this FASCINATING topic??? Do we think the one ring would hold multiple ring value? Would Sonic turn invisible or just absorb it? How does the ring affect sonic if it is absorbed? What happens if he collects 100 One Rings? I have so many questions.
(adorable little Timmy voice) "He would turn into Sonic dot E X E and kill us all!!"
Battle Network intensifies
Holy crap! A
Megamanreference???Yeah... Pretty much my whole childhood Special Interest.
Cool profile picture!
People remember the existence of the battle network megaman games, not just the platformers!?
I saw a meme about that game 😅
What about would happen if the rings forged for man, dwarves, and elves (19 in all) were collected by Sonic along with the One Ring? Sonic could be like... a super ring wraith.
Then we put the Chaos Emeralds in the mix, and things get extra spicy.
It really depends on which sonic we are talking about, SEGA Genius Sonic, Sonic Adventures Sonic, one of the western animation Sonics, Anime Sonic, Live Action Sonic? If it's Archie Comics Sonic then the power scale goes right out the window.
::: spoiler live action Sonic https://programming.dev/pictrs/image/1c7d2e12-ccdb-48ca-ab1f-789bbfb17023.jpeg or https://programming.dev/pictrs/image/f0b85abc-af1a-4102-8fea-bb9b23389d66.jpeg
Is the One Ring even categorically different from power rings?
blahaj.zone is better about it, but much of Lemmy even just defaults to "he"
This is the only reasonable way to handle this situation. I'm all about making sure people are comfortable, but making-up words and then getting offended when people don't use them properly is bonkers. I truly don't mean to offend anyone, but this is getting out of hand.
I love how this gets posted for community members, in a meta community, talking about how to engage with our space to not get banned, and then every loser from all comes in here like "umm actually you can't police my speech and umm pronoun bad" and promptly gets banned for being transphobic and breaking the rules that this post said will be enforced.
the mods and admins are doing a good job here, thanks for all your hard work you put in to make one of my favorite spaces on the internet as wonderful as it is.
Won't somebody think of the transphobic cishet men?
They're the real oppressed! https://blahaj.zone/files/1d70c4ad-2453-44f4-97ba-0df60343e880
pet pet
Like moths to a light bulb, it would be funny if the banned folks' behavior wasn't steeped in hatred
The admin's chosen examples, in this thread, include demanding people use a slur, if that's what some rando insists you insert, instead of the "they" that should work for any human being.
It's really fucking difficult to argue 'that absolutist or-else seems like a poor idea' without sounding wishy-washy - or catching a boot in the ass.
look the whole point of this thread is that if you didn't want to respect somebody's pronouns then just don't interact with them or report them if you think they are genuinely trolling, not encourage them. if you don't do that so your giving trolls what they want and hurting trans people who do identify with those pronouns.
Coskiis' stance on pronouns is very simple. Coskii will respect anyones pronouns up until those pronouns are more complicated than a beings name. At which point Coskii uses the beings name instead of any pronouns. Pronouns are meant to be a conversational shortcut. If a shortcut is not being made, Coskii does not feel the need to use pronouns.
Neopronouns are (generally) not more complicated than a beings name. Exceptions do exist.
Writing a message without using pronouns for explicit understanding of how and why pronouns exist in English in the first place, including personal pronouns, is certainly a mood. The flow of sentences is somewhere between legal and caveman. Not using pronouns leaves no wiggle room for any interpretation on the subject being discussed, however the lack of personal pronouns means Coskii must always refer to Coskii as Coskii. Thank goodness Coskii is not a terribly long name.
questopm for coskii: i has 3 character name, would coskii pick to using just max or he hims orboth meows? a lso woild coskii use they thems for max ? (like if didnt know max preferres hehims)
For Max, I would use he/hims, they/thems, or whatever other pronouns Max would prefer. Max is a shortcut in and of itself. Maxwell, Maximilian, Maxine, or Maximus can all be Max.
If Max were to decide that Maxs' pronouns were Maxillaries/Maximilleficint, I would at that point likely just refer to Max as Max. As at that point I feel that what has been made are no longer pronouns, but situational proper nouns.
By a much more extreme example, if Max has a flowchart/spreadsheet of pronouns that are time/date sensative, such as changing pronouns according to the current astrological sign + day of the week/phase of the moon, Max is being called Max.
I know Coskii meant it as a counter example, but time dependant pronouns kinda kicks ass ngl
I agree it would be hard as hell to use and I'd probably default to some shortcut too tbh, but it's a cool concept.
They certainly do have an appeal, and ideally it's fine. Realistically though there's a mental limit to the number of those flowcharts a single person can be expected to learn and follow.
I could see a high fantasy setting where an entire culture followed a single chart and it would be fine.. But at the same time I've literally seen players fail to start a sentence with their own name and title (for court record keeping reasons).
How do you reconcile this with people wanting to be called longhand versions of their names? ex: John wants to be called Johnathan, we would respect that, but if John says their pronouns are Johnathan/ Johnithian, would you still call them John?
I understand the question you are attempting to ask. However within this example if John decided that Johnathon/Johnithian are what John would like as pronouns, but somehow is simultaneously fine with being called John as a name.. I believe you would find most people would use John rather than similar and longer names as pronouns (to avoid confusion mostly). If John prefers to be referred to as Johnathon, then most people would follow that or split off entirely and pick up a nickname.
Idealogically anyone should be able to use whatever pronouns they'd like with no rules, limits, or caveats.
Realistically (for now/me), my social interactions are not high enough on my layers of priority, particularly with new groups, that I would consider the need to commit most or really any of anyones' pronouns to memory. As using those pronouns would require me to speak about someone other than myself, to someone who is not the direct recipient of those words. Being the hermit that I am, my comments throughout nearly the entirety of my time on Lemmy or other online social spaces reaching back to nearly the beginning of my time online does not need or use third person pronouns an absolutely vast amount of those interactions in that time.
As a completely off topic anecdote, the only time I can remember using third person pronouns semi often was while on a forum for the original halo game in which I'd attempt to decipher the horrendous typos and extra keystrokes of people I can only assume were younger children asking questions about the game.
thamks coskii!! meow :3
i don't get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that
it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn't be more complicated than that
this exactly, there are already rules against trolling, and for the trolls who haven't tipped their hand yet, the block button works great; one reason for this kind of trolling can be to incite division that gatekeeping rules would create - blocking a troll until they show their hand feels like a small price to pay to avoid that, and I'm proud of admins that are wise enough to understand this
If we have to have gender-specific pronouns, sure. While well-intentioned, that approach will never be perfect, it’s STILL categorising people into smaller and smaller groupings in contexts where categorisation is unnecessary. We’re jumping through linguistic loops so complicated that we need cue-cards for, when we could just use gender-neutral pronouns universally.
Bespoke pronouns are also only a “solution” in English, which (mostly) has no gender-specific suffixes for nouns. In the spirit of inclusivity German has recently misguidedly settled on just repeating the noun with male and female suffixes, “I have to go to the hairdresser or hairdresseress”. Unarguably more quantitatively inclusive, this grammatical monstrosity is also more severely excluding people that fit in neither category. The answer isn’t “everyone should additionally specify their own suffixes so we can list off more variations” but rather to stop caring what gender cuts your hair altogether. Hairdresser can be a gender-neutral word. Here’s to them.
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren't genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the "one joke" conservatives have ("hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter").
Obviously I can't say for sure that's what is happening, but I've read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn't being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I'd never purposely insult this person by calling them "him" or "her," but they'll remain a "they" to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with "neopronouns" (as far as I understand it).
I know a few neopronoun users and some are fine with they/them, some are just worn down into accepting they/them, and some really do not like they/them
Ok, lets say that this happens.
That doesn't mean that the correct response is to invalidate neopronouns. If that's literally the goal of a troll, then saying "You're a troll, I'm not going to use your pronouns" is literally what they want.
But I will also suggest you read up on Isabel Fall, to see why even the attack helicopter pronoun meme isn't always a troll, and how the community itself can become harmful to its own members when it turns on them
It doesn't really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it's not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow "discredit" me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.
Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn't also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.
It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I'm not sure I support is indulging people's possible mental illness by pretending it's ok that they believe they're a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
I'm really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that's just not the same thing and I don't believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone's gender to be "unicorn." Because unicorns aren't real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.
I'm sure everyone will tell me how I'm wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.
When people on the left legitimize these people's obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, "litter boxes in schools" things in many people's minds. It does more harm than good.
Seriously. I'm fine with neopronouns that relate to the actual gender binary or spectrum. Something that says you're male, female, somewhere in between, some oscillating state along the spectrum, or even a pronoun saying you don't exist along the spectrum at all. But the key distinction here is that any neopronoun must relate back to the male/female gender spectrum. Otherwise you're not describing gender, you are describing personality traits. Every personality trait and characteristic is not a gender.
so we're back to gender being indistinguishable from biologial sex, and there being only two settings with a option for some mixing of the parts on occasion? every single fucking time gender comes up we end up back here.
This "summary" you have proposed is not an accurate represntation of what the other person in this thread is arguing.
I don't quite understand your point, how can a pronoun denote that one is 'somewhere in between male and female' or even express more complex state as in your example? The idea looks impossible to implement to me, an example would definitely help
The umbrella term for this is nonbinary, and people often use they, or if they use neopronouns it's something like xir.
The parent commenter's point is that nonbinary identities typically relate back to the conventional gender spectrum in some way, whereas dragon does not and seems more like a fursona or character trait thing.
This is not made easier by the fact that "dragon" is a proper noun, and in fiction there are male and female dragons.
Yeah, when we get this specific example it does seem off. But if I were to choose some invented pronoun to show that I identify as ¾ male the pronoun itself will not convey that meaning even if it literally would be th¾y, that's what my question of what are the examples was about
Men are as made up as unicorns, but we all respect men's gender identities, and we should.
Good thing no one asked you.
I like how you used arguments that were/are used by T-exclusive LGB folks to dehumanize a different marginalized group and Lemmy users just ate it up.
You even used the "they're just mentally ill" argument against them, you don't even try to hide that you're just riding a wave of what's socially accepted already and what's not yet.
Can you list all these genders you accept so I know which ones are pure fantasy for you? Y'know, mere twenty years ago most people wouldn't say more than two of them.
"Men" and "women" are just social roles made up in the Stone Age and changed somewhat during the centuries of human history, that are just so happened to be bound to our genitals. There's nothing real about it.
Are we politicians or what? Why should we make our identity 'presentable' for bigots?
The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It's because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.
In other words, the correct response to someone demanding you call them what is almost certainly a troll neopronouns is to block them. Or, the equivalent in the real world is, "I'm not going to misgender you. I'm going to tell you to fuck off and never talk to me again. If that really is your gender, I guess I don't like associating with people of that gender. Goodbye."
What's the worst thing that will happen if an obviously moronic masculine-presenting person says "hurr durr my pronouns are balls/sack" and you do what they ask and use those pronouns? Will they play along? Will they be offended? What's a desirable outcome? What's an undesirable outcome?
I was specifically talking about a user here who refers to themselves as a dragon, speaks in the third person calling themselves a dragon each sentence, insists that everyone they interact with on here also refers to them that way (also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.
I wouldn't say I have a problem with the concept of neopronouns as a whole, though that's more because I just haven't thought enough about it to have an informed opinion.
But, to answer your question with respect to the behavior of the user I was referring to:
For transphobic people who are pushing an anti-trans agenda to gullible idiots who are already, at the very least, borderline homophobic, it legitimizes all of those "libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids' schools!" trans panic, bullshit.
It shows that there are people on the left who are willing to take it a few steps too far, and indulge in people's possible mental illness where they believe their gender is a non-existent, fantasy creature. Something that's literally not possible as it is not on the human gender spectrum. At least not as I understand it.
I'm sure people will tell me how I'm wrong.
Pronouns are a way of helping us find our identity and sharing it with the world. They tell other people who we are, and our relationship with our identity. Some people use them as an act of empowerment and reclamation. Some people use them to actively break down the normalisation of the gender binary as the default/only way of thinking about gender. Other people use them because it's just the best way they have of describing their internal experience.
Which is a lot of words to say that you don't know why someone is using neopronouns or what their intent is. All you can use is their actions. And if what they do is troll and stir up trouble with their actions, report that, because that's the bit that matters, not the fact that they're using pronouns you find challenging, which may be the very point.
You've got work to do on your understanding of how hatred works. No one hates us because we used a weird pronoun. They hate us because they've been taught to hate us, and ultimately, it doesn't matter what we do or how perfect we are, they will find an excuse to manifest that hate.
There is no such thing as a person who would have supported us, but choses not to, because they don't like unusual pronouns. There are people who support us and are uncomfortable with unusual pronouns, but someone who drops their support over that, was going to drop their support anyway over something, once they found an excuse that let them tell themselves that they're not the bad guy in their story.
You can not win over hate by being on your best behaviour and existing on the terms of people who hate us. It has never worked and never will.
No, I am sure in a case by case basis you are right and that seems like an exception to the rule though. I think the spirit of the topic is that we should just use pronouns on this instance even more common neopronouns like xir. My personal opinion is I think "they" is probably a fine blanket term for all gender neutrality, but that will likely "other" them into the bucket of "they"... so I can see how this is a tricky situation.
To call this a leftist thing is interesting though. We are discussing humans, not politics. I didn't bring it up. My acceptance of all people other than me drives me to leftism, not the other way around.
Honestly, a general rule of thumb"act in good faith" is probably enough. Not hard to enforce and usually a small enough offense is enough to deter most.
People here are really overcomplicating this.
Step 1: Treat everyone with respect, including respecting their communication preferences. If it becomes obvious they're not being serious and/or respectful themselves (ball/sack, dog/shit), then simply disengage and report. Their bad behavior doesn't justify anyone else's bad behavior in response.
Step 2: If there's only suspicion their requests/preferences are somehow a form of trolling, harassment, or the like, either...
2.1: Respectfully ask non-accusatory questions for clarification, then return to step 1
Or
2.2: Disengage, report to a mod, and let them handle this shit
Rinse and repeat.
There are two overwhelmingly likely results to this little workflow.
I don't care for neopronouns, but it also doesn't matter what I think. If it's REALLY a problem for me, like that person who's gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won't refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person's gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)
I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn't make that person my god, and I shouldn't be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don't follow. I may choose to follow other religions' conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person's pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.
I don't think using someone's preferred pronoun capitalisation is a worship thing. On My antirealist discord server, capitalised pronouns are the default. If you want lowercase pronouns, you have to pick a role that says so.
I've met people who thought capitalised pronouns were a matter of religion. But I've also met people who think "he" and "she" pronouns are a matter of religion. They think their gender identities are handed down to them by Elohim, and refusing to use someone's god-given pronouns is a form of disrespect against their god. They say "My god doesn't make mistakes", and think their religious beliefs are a reason to misgender people. I think that if treating people decently means decoupling pronouns from religion, then everyone should decouple pronouns from religion.
Your last point raises a good question.
Mods, if someone says Their pronouns are supposed to be capitalised, will we be called for it if we don't capitalise Them?
Me omw to make all of my pronouns the full transcript of the Bee Movie
Actually, would that be covered under this rule? Like I would be trolling if I did that, but under a true all-acceptance policy you couldn't selectively not use those pronouns
I think at that point one can choose to word sentences to not use pronouns at all
Neopronouns are valid as hell and all these people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are by definition transphobic.
You cannot claim to support trans people while declaring a subgroup to be invalid because you think they're not doing it the right way. You are not an ally unless you support all trans people, people who use neopronouns are not the problem, you are.
Policing trans people makes you a transphobe.
I've spent what feels like half an hour scrolling through comment threads to figure out what the hell happened to lead to this. Is there some kind of explainer somewhere? Is there a key thread that I missed somehow? Should I even be asking?
There's a user called dragonfucker whose gender is apparently "dragonfucker", who insists on the neopronoun "drag", and who eagerly takes offense whenever misgendered, whether the misgendering was intentional or not. Some people understandably believe this user is a troll.
Dragon Rider, actually, not dragonfucker. And drag isn't mad that you misremembered.
Some Lemmy clients show handle instead of username, that's why some users may never have seen 'Drag Rider (drag)' at all
I haven't seen them take offense very often
How dare you call drag 'them'!!! >:(
😂😂😂 just kidding, drag doesn't act like that. Thank you for sticking up for drag.
I love for drag to have the courage and space to express dragself, so it's always heartbreaking when people are hating on drag for no reason instead of just engaging with the content of drag's comments and having meaningful discussions. Stay true to dragself and don't let others make drag change. Thank you to the instance admins for standing up for drag.
Except they don't eagerly take offense to being mispronouned. Most of the time, when I've seen it, they don't even say anything.
A user called drag can sometimes rub people the wrong way. Sometimes it's drag's actions. Sometimes it's the fact drag refers to dragself with pronouns using various permutations of drag.
The former is a valid reason for contention. The latter isn't.
I always thought Drag was speaking in the third person. Did I misunderstand something?Edit: yes, I didDrag does both, as demonstrated in this very thread.
This is more of a public service announcement style of post than a deeply intentioned 'after incident response' post.
While I'm sure there have been plenty of incidents based on some of the other comments, there hasn't been some singular massive event to cause this to happen. If anything it's more of a reminder that one purpose of blahaj.zone is for inclusivity and acceptance. Excluding people because of some indirect words is not the goal.
Thanks for clarifying.
i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.
reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.
Your intentions are valiant. Can I ask for clarification with one section to ensure I don’t error within this instance’s rules?
We’ve probably all seen the “one joke” of transphobes/nonbinaryphobes attempting a parody of preferred pronouns/neopronouns by choosing arbitrary or intentionally harmful terms. This link contains some examples of what I’m referring to:
Content warning: transphobia/nonbinaryphobia/misgendering, annoying visual glitch
In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise? As an example from the linked video, if I refer to Ted Cruz on this instance, must I use the neopronouns kiss/my/ass to be within the rules? (assuming Ted Cruz had yet to state a revision of pronouns)
In a more extreme case, let’s say somebody named User1 genuinely uses [neopronoun 1]/[neopronoun 2]/[neopronoun 3], which we understand to be totally fine. If a troll account named User2 joined this instance with undisclosed malicious intent and stated that their pronouns were [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real], should the users/admins/mods each take that all on face value and refer to User2 with [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real]?
In short, do the rules require that we refer to someone by the neopronouns that they state even if the surrounding context strongly suggests that they are a transphobic/nonbinaryphobic troll and that their statement of their pronouns is disingenuous and intended to be a harmful ridicule to transgender and nonbinary people?
When I see that somebody uses neopronouns and they appear to be in earnest, I respect and adhere to that and I appreciate that you do too. I do worry that there may arise some trolls who misuse our benevolent intentions and who attempt to mock and insult us by taking advantage of generous good faith and ultimately make things worse for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to address this and watching out for everybody.
You don't need to use any pronouns to block and report.
Exactly this
If that person is trolling, then report their behaviour, not their pronouns. The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. And don't interact with them in the mean time. If their goal is invalidating the idea of neopronouns, the correct response isn't for you to invalidate the use of neopronouns as a result of their actions.
But even "attack helicopter" and the like... If you're not familiar with it, look up the story of Isabel Fall. She was almost driven to suicide, she changed her name, and may even have detransitioned as a result of the fallout she received from a story she wrote about the attack helicopter pronouns. Her intentions were good, it was an honest act of reclamation, but people were so upset at the mere idea of her story, that her own community turned on her. Her story looked like the story a troll might have written. But critically, it wasn't a story written by a troll, it was a story written by a trans person trying to find power in a slur that had been levelled against her community.
So until I can sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy, the only thing we can act on is actions. And using neopronouns, even unusual and challenging ones, isn't a trolling action by itself. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.
Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion. I obviously cannot source other comments that may have been deleted or removed:
“it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it”
“My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general… I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.” Continued “(also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.”
“The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It’s because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.”
And here are 10 modlog remarks by your instance’s mods pertaining to the contextual behavior of the same user. There are additional modlog remarks by mods of other instances to similar effect. Please do take a look through them all:
2x: Banned: reason: Trolling
Banned: reason: history of misgendering and encouraging suicide
4x Banned: reason: Encouraging suicide, bad faith accusations, moderator harassment. Not Appealable
Banned: reason: encouraging suicide
Banned: reason: History of encouraging suicide
Removed Comment: reason: Advocating violence, encouraging suicide
Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned (edit: clarification: unbanned from the instance). As admin, have you scrutinized your users’ and mods’ listed concerns over this apparent repeat offender prior to now? Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions? I do not expect you to “sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy”, but do you distrust the acuity of your userbase and modteams over and over again? If the user is a troll, you are doing exactly what they want you to do; if the user is not a troll, many people have taken measures to avoid hostility from them. Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?
You will get trolls on this instance. You will get trolls anywhere online. It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.
I had already blocked this user who knows how long ago. Their behavior doesn’t affect me anymore. I’m also not part of a demographic that needs this instance. Go ahead and ban me for speaking out for those who do need this instance. But this user —and any other users whom the admin team shies away from calling trolls— they will affect the new people who come to this instance who do need a safe place, and those new users will be deterred from here by the hostility and unfettered trolls that are tolerated.
None of that is "contextual behaviour". It's literally just people upset by pronouns they find discomforting. Once you remove "Using pronouns I don't like" as a reason, there is nothing else to those posts.
Drag was banned from 196 by community mods
We have reports, a matrix channel and DMs.
I haven't seen evidence of other bad behaviour that warrants an instance ban. Drag has stirred up drama, deliberately so, and has received community bans as a result, and I support the rights of the community mods to make that choice. But I've seen no evidence of genuine attempts to encourage others to suicide, or ongoing deliberate misgendering, or anything else that warrants an instance ban. I've seen many accusations of such, but I've not seen any evidence behind the accusations.
If I'm missing some, please drop me a DM or the like.
A queer instance that gatekeeps queer folk isn't hospitable, protective or empathic.
I am well aware that trolls can slip through and try and stir up drama. I believe that it's worth the risk, because the cost of gatekeeping gender diverse folks self expression isn't a price I'm willing to pay to be troll free. I'd rather the odd troll slip through the cracks and get dealt with than default to gatekeeping.
No. Your paragraph is wholly false and you are making these claims in bad faith. I cannot read you the user comments and spell out their meanings. You act with a prejudice that people can only take umbrage with this user because they use neopronouns and you willfully and selectively reject any claims of impropriety that the user may have committed elsewhere.
I meant from unbanned from the instance. I’ve edited my comment for clarity.
So those are instance bannable offenses? Is there a full list beyond just in the instance sidebar? Here are some removed comments from the modlog by the user:
Advocating for suicide/murder: “If you're planning on killing yourself, go buy a gun and take a red hat with you. Drag is serious.”
Explicitly advocating for murder/violence: “Buy a gun. Shoot a red hat. Violence is the answer.”
After cyberstalking and harassing a lemmy.world mod to disrespect the mod’s daughter’s pronouns: “You previously said that you always use gender neutral pronouns to refer to other people. In order to help you with that goal, drag would like to point out that you just used a "she" pronoun, so that you can edit it to a "they" and maintain the standard you set for yourself.“
Racism: “Drag thinks Germans just like genocide in general.”
Advocating for bestiality: “Drag likes dragon dick and doesn't have a problem with anybody who does. That's clearly some kind of non-dragon-fucking person. Whoever they are, they suck. Love is love and loving dragons is okay. Drag doesn't have a problem with sucking any kind of cock, as long as it's consensual.”
Some mods also believe this user to be a new account by a troll named droneright. I’m not going to link to every comment and post that still stands that points to the gestalt of the troll’s deception. It’s not gatekeeping to scrutinize somebody’s actions and determine that they are spitting in your face and telling you that it’s raining.
You are being trolled. The user has carefully curated elements of absurdity and inanity separate from a gender identity/expression with the intent to form a mocking caricature of queer and queer-inclusive people and to ruin their safe spaces. Read the comments and read between the lines elsewhere. A server admin needs to have the reading literacy and internet literacy to see this miles before it has gotten to this point.
You will find your instance overrun with trolls that make the experience intolerable. Other instances will defederate from your instance to avoid the abundance of trolls that you will host. The people who need an inclusive community will lose it.
I have explicitly acknowledged drag deliberately created drama in 196, was banned by the 196 mods, and I support the mods right to make such bans.
What I've said is that I haven't seen evidence of anything warranting an entire instance ban. I've seen people talk about it a lot, but I've not actually seen the evidence myself, and given the ire that drag has stirred up in people, I'm going to need to see it before I act on it.
drag is not based on blahaj zone...
You have the patience of a saint.
That’s why I said to read through the user’s history and critically consider why the profile expresses the particular things it expresses. Look at the gestalt, not just individual incidences.
I know. But other trolls can copy this behavior and infiltrate safe spaces by being hosted on your instance.
I will share that dragonfucker has significantly harassed me and sent death threats toward my way, it was through an alt account so I guess one could say that it could've not been drag, but the circumstances surrounding it were suspicious enough that I'm almost certain that this alt was the same person/dragon as dragonfucker. The community that was created to harass and target me !fuckdraconicneo@discuss.online along with the alt is gone but since I was pinged on every account and I have email notifications enabled I still do have all the messages I received, as well as screenshots of DMs from the user account, none of them are pretty.
I'm not a fan of gatekeeping people's identities and I REALLY don't think we should do that. I do think we should understand the kind of person drag is though, and acknowledge that these types of things like the death threats, the harassment, and encouragement of suicide have no place here, in a safe space no less.
Hello, drag can clarify the modlog claims.
Mods think drag is a troll because drag uses neopronouns.
Mods think drag encouraged suicide because after Donald Trump was elected, drag told suicidal trans people it's better to die in battle than to do the fascists' job for them.
Mods think drag misgendered because Flying Squid's daughter wants to use she/they pronouns but he accuses anyone who calls her 'they' of misgendering because he's not a good parent.
You know anyone can create a community on Lemmy and use
curlcommands to create fake modlogs, right?hmm, could this be patched? or it's used by .ml or grad but it's unlikely so i think it might.
I think drag is talking about using the API or network tab in browser to create bans when a person hasn't posted in a community before, as far as I know there's no way to create fake modlog entries, other than doctoring screenshots of the modlog (something you'll be busted on very quickly) or possibly by screwing with the database as an admin (something that you'll also be busted on since it won't federate).
Comment removals can't be faked or screwed with unless doctored, because the comments removed must actually exist to appear in the log.
For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.
We could:
Doesn't really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.
Love this, Ada. So nice to see another instance run by caring, respectful folk. Love from beehaw!
Before I curse my worst enemy I will ask their pronouns. Their right to identity is not based on my respect for them.
https://lemmy.nz/pictrs/image/61772466-b9c1-41ef-af58-aeec05ee0075.png
https://lemmy.nz/pictrs/image/0d8a10ec-61eb-4bdb-acda-330c990a2183.png
https://lemmy.nz/pictrs/image/17d6e2c0-974f-4be2-bd22-9bcacad38336.png
https://lemmy.nz/pictrs/image/2f844816-6eee-4c9a-9f1b-33280cd7ccbd.png
Lots of people in here who don't get pronouns or trans people, for those I recommend this article:
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/so-you-found-out-youre-agender-because-you-don-t-understand-trans-people-886fdee6f178
There's a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it's barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don't even know that their experience isn't universal.
I was interested until I saw the author and it clicked. Must be a broken clock situation.
Just because someone might not have the same opinions as you, or even in some cases opinions you consider dead wrong it doesn't mean they are always wrong.
Think of political parties, in one case a party you usually align yourself with makes a terrible decision, and in another case a party you hate makes a decision you would wholeheartedly support. Does that mean your prior preferred party is suddenly on the same level as your hated party? Depends, of course, but we can't deny that we can't expect everyone to share the exact same values as us. Variety is the spice of life, and sometimes even someone we consider to be right/wrong will surprise us in negative or positive ways.
I've only read a handful of Their articles, but all the ones I've read seem solid. Can I ask what your problem is with Them?
Aside from Them jumping the gun, causing an unwarranted dog piling on a well loved mod of a small community that was essentially a safe space for some, resulting in that user leaving Lemmy and the community completely dying, I have read at least one article of Theirs that called people who did not volunteer for war murderers, or something to that effect, I just remember it being an excessively nasty and unnuanced take.
In another article They also advocated for being generally unlikeable, which had some good points but ultimately goes against everything I think is good about being a leftist.
I recall that in general conversation They were often argumentative and quick to anger too, not someone I ever wanted to interact with, though frankly my memory on that aspect is shaky at best.
I never saw that article before but I do like it, I have noticed that a lot of people who I know that identify as cisgender don't seem to have an internal sense of gender or pay much mind to gender but I didn't think anyone else thought that too. It's nice to see my idea isn't as unpopular as I initially thought.
What a great article
Haha, look who it is. Love the article, a few of my friends have realized they also might be agender from it.
Thank you! I'd love to blow your mind a few more times if you're interested in reading the rest of My stuff https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/you-already-think-like-a-soulist-fe1723151b85
It really is, I thought I was one of the only people to think that Agender might be really common but just hidden because many people who don't feel gender can blend in as cis or not even know they're Agender. Obviously we'll probably never really know for sure but I do think it's likely that many of the people out there who don't feel gender or don't think about gender are very likely Agender.
I also saw a meme a while back that said animals are Agender because they don't give so much thought to gender the way humans do.
If you like exploring the unknown reaches of identity, I've got some articles I think you'll like.
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/on-spiritual-genders-b4152c4503cb
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/introduction-to-capitalised-pronouns-f5140e722b48
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/the-nested-structure-of-gender-identity-75681e3cfa34
Thank you, I'll definitely give these a read, they look interesting.
Thanks for sharing this. As an older person working to sort out their gender identity later on in life it’s nice to have more ideas to consider.
I’ve wondered if gender identity is a bit like our other senses where we can practice and get better at discerning the signals we’ve always been receiving, but haven’t always known what they mean.
How much is trainable and how much is innate.
Anyway thanks again for sharing this.
It sure is trainable to some extent. I didn't think I suffered from gender dysphoria when I first realised I was trans. I was only able to connect with gender euphoria to realise My identity. But after I experimented with My gender and tried on some new pronouns and self-images, I realised I hated being a male. I was miserable, but I wasn't able to see My misery, because I thought it was just life. It's like when someone with tinnitus doesn't even realise they have it, because they've forgotten what silence sounds like. When I started thinking of Myself as trans, I experienced that metaphorical silence, and then I could hear the metaphorical ringing that was My dysphoria.
As always Ada, eloquently put ♥️♥️ thank you!
yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao
that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear
To be fair, pugjesus is an asshole about a lot of things, not just drag.
/s
I took a look and this is their normal behavior: just the topic du jour that they can use to whip up drama.
i really oughta block that whole comm. there’s something to be said for the value of dissenting opinions, but until they raise a point that isn’t “weird pronouns bad” there’s not a lot there for anyone outside the echo chamber.
i’m starting to think even trying to argue the logic is just an exercise in validating their bullshit when your comments all get dogpiled.
Lemmy seems to be getting worse unfortunately :\
thanks for being around, ada. the work you do is greatly appreciated, even if it’s not readily apparent all the time.
imo @MossyFeathers said it best in an edit they made to this comment, quoted for visibility:
Damn, it's really weird to see myself getting quoted in a completely different thread, lol. Tbh, I'm not sure I handled myself all that well; however, in my defense, I was really pissed off because it's no where near the first time I've seen people claim an identity was false, nor was it the first time I've seen someone treat pronouns like a reward for good behavior. I don't agree that using "gender" in the way drag was using it is the correct way of using it, it seems like using a hammer on a screw; however, that's not really for me to decide.
Drama subs are kind of a guilty pleasure for me, which was why I was there in the first place (also I browse all). At this point though, I've blocked pugjesus and I hope to never see their ass again. Probably gonna go back and block a bunch of the transphobes effectively saying that having your identity/pronouns respected are a privilege and not a right as well. What a bunch of gross, toxic individuals. It also makes me sad and disappointed. Lemmy used to be fun. It's not really fun anymore.
it’s raw, and it’s real, and i’m SO glad you typed it out because it’s eloquating some shit that’s been bouncing around my head all nebulous and untouchable like.
and yeah pugjesus is a punk ass. mf has more than triple dipped on being an asshole in just the past 24 hours. anyone who isn’t already in that particular brand of echo chamber would be best off keeping as far away as possible, those kinda toxins are bad for the spirit :/
I definitely didn't handle myself well in response to this either, so please give yourself some grace. The amount of cis people who were trying to assert that disrespecting drag's identity was the right thing to do was huge and wildly disappointing. It's hard to call any of them allies. I've been blocking a bunch as well.
Hi Ada, I stepped in to lock the post and put a stop to the drama, but maybe I should have acted sooner. Our admins have got no problem with respecting drag's pronouns or anyone else's. The social conservatives seem emboldened since Trump was re-elected imo. It sucks.
You literally didn't though? You locked someone else's post, but not PugJesus' post. You also regurgitated the same stupid line about "dragon fucker isn't a gender" that literally has nothing to do with drag's pronouns. Way to try and curry favour like you care when you clearly, in fact, do not.
This is a bad faith comment tbh. I locked the second post on this topic soon after I was messaged about it. It didn't seem as heated as the other post I previously locked which is why I'd left it unlocked originally. Perhaps it took a while for that lock to be federated to the blajah instance?
And for the record, that's not what I said, you are (inaccurately) paraphrasing. I do think that drag is a irredeemable troll, but I have always used drag's pronouns to the best of my ability. Just because drag might be trans doesn't excuse drag's behaviour towards other users. We adopt a "fuck around and find out" rule towards trolls and drag fucked around one time too many.
I don't have any opinion on the validity or otherwise of neo-pronouns, I'm not interested in litigating the topic because the discussion always turns toxic - I simply reminded our members to respect pronouns even if they don't agree with or understand them.
If my actions seem like "currying favour" to you, then I can only say that you seem to be determined to take offense.
"paraphrasing"
yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i'm just trying to take offence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag's pronouns shouldn't factor into that.
in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus' post, which you hadn't locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.
It's sad to see transphobia being perpetuated on this instance (dbzer0), by an admin nonetheless. Guess it's time to switch instances.
thank you for replying to their message as well, i really didn't have the spoons too. you're more than welcome here at blahaj 💜
The CW differentiates between "misgendering" as usually understood by mainstream folks (i.e., calling a trans-man a woman or vice versa) and the more inclusive concept of "misgendering" (maybe I used the wrong term here??) Ada posted about which includes imaginary identities and pronouns, such as fantasy creatures etc. I think the first meaning is widely accepted (at least among social progressives) but the second is perhaps not, which is why I made the distinction. If you can suggest a more appropriate wording for the CW that will be understood by most folks then I'll be happy to consider revising the wording. I also reminded our users to respect pronouns no matter what they are, even if they don't understand or agree with them.
FYI, I'm not in fact a mod of that community. I only stepped in because I got a lot of reports about this topic and thought it was going off the rails. And generally I prefer to leave user comments intact in that community rather than removing them, since I think it's useful to keep a record of the discussion for future reference. Thus the CW approach on this occasion.
The actual chain of events was 1. receiving a bunch of reports about one post (the first one I locked); 2. coming across this post and expressing solidarity with Ada; 3. receiving a message about the second post; and 4. locking that post too. PugJesus was in fact active in both posts and there was a lot of topic overlap.
I'm sorry I didn't act sooner, but it's xmas and I have other IRL stuff going on. I'm also sorry you folks at blajah have received so much abuse simply for trying to be an inclusive and safe space for trans people. I do my best to be supportive of trans folks and of your instance, but I totally acknowledge I'm not an expert on the topic and may have worded things poorly. If you want to attack me for that, then go ahead I guess, but on a personal note, I am a 50yo gay man who has also faced discrimination and abuse in my life, so please have some consideration for my feelings too, because being (imo) unfairly accused of being transphobic is hurtful. Thanks.
Misgendering is misgendering, fullstop, no distinction to be made. They aren't "imaginary identities" they are just identities. It's sad to see transphobia being spouted by an instance admin of what I formerly considered a safe instance to be apart of.
By considering invalidating neopronouns to not be "misgendering" you are essentially invalidating those identities, and certainly doing so by calling them "imaginary".
Additionally, perpetuating transphobia at all is disgusting. There shouldn't be a cw, it should be removed, and the user should be banned. The modlog has logs if seeing the context is needed.
Thank you! It's been eye opening to see just how many of them there are active on lemmy :/
I want to share the above person's comment regarding drag while locking that post:
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/15649022
As well, the post that user locked was not the main post, that was left unlocked for at least another 12 hours. There were two.
I didn't want to report this as I didn't want to face repercussion from moderators/admin on that instance.
Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I've literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I'm including my own community I run outside of lemmy.
Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it's incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.
Without ever making a post on the Lemmy, I have donated to this instance every month for well over a year, amounting to hundreds. Your principled moderation is why I am here. I will forever be grateful for the space you've given us
Very true. I do hope that the one or two trolls who instigated this post stop getting free rein to start drama. Pronouns should be respected, narcissism should not.
You probably don't know this, but hatred of narcissism is historically related to conservative social philosophy. https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/why-reactionaries-hate-pride-and-narcissists-938d39261f13
I've had to deal with a lot of narcissistic people in my life, I really don't like narcissists.
There's a big difference between pride and narcissism. Though they can easily go hand I'm hand.
As far as I'm aware, the difference is that the word "narcissism" is historically associated with asexuals and the mentally ill, while the word "pride" has no overt political connotations.
A while ago I wrote an open letter to people who were abused by parents with NPD and who blame the disorder. I don't know if that's you, but if it is, here's what I wrote: https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/your-parent-with-npd-chose-to-abuse-you-f7ac23e0427a
As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don't want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to "they" unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I'm neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.
This is a good strategy :)
This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135
Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.
Not really, there are lists of the more well known ones. But they absolutely are not definitive. Much like gender, prounons are a social construct. It's just a quickie handhold to communicate how that particular person sees themselves. They're essentially stereotypes of stereotypes that mold and change over time. Which is why what's considered women's work (cooking) and men's work (grilling) have shifted over time. Redneck, goth, jock & etc are all different forms of gender because it loosely describes how that person presents to the world. So a new gender/prounons is born, valid and inherently correct the moment someone says it. Gender is a social performance and there is no way to do it wrong.
When I was in the early days of my transition, I literally asked the same thing! Good question! You're right, to put your new name/prounons into your name is inherently sorta doxxing yourself. You're unfortunately entirely correct that it's a risk depending on where you live. However the answer is also unfortunate and that's its worth the risk to most people. All of our situations are different, but without question there are trans folk, out or closeted, that do not get to use their chosen name/prounons in real life. If they don't use it online, the they effectively don't get to be correctly identified in any part or their life. It's out of desperation to be validated in some way. It's a bummer, but I get it. I'm lucky and privileged enough to be out full time, so I don't use my name online. But I'm absolutely not gonna judge how another person gets through the day.
How Can Pronous Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real? /s
But actually, s/he & they are pronouns I'll use in everyday speech. Anything else and I tend to favor a person's name; it's just... You know, easier to facilitate a conversation that way.
Edit: oh I see this is from blåhaj. Nvm. I stand by my comment but I see I'm not the target audience.
Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.
My problem is the intense amount of trolls and the harm that they've caused. Ive seen this instance devolve into trolls, counter trolls (trolls), alt accounts (trolls), mods (myself included) not being able to keep up, and admins not doing enough (imo).
The alternative, is a queer instance that is built from the ground up with gatekeeping baked in to its core. You may be ok with that. I am not. This instance will never be that.
I'm in agreement with this, but I think people should complain about the trolling behavior and the abusive behavior, and not about the pronouns, because the trolling and abusive behavior is the real problem. Not people using different pronouns or having non-standard identities.
perhaps there needs to be more admins or something dunno just a thought *cough*
I completely agree
100%.
You don't get to decide if another person's identity is valid or not. That's literally just transphobia, and perpetuating that inside our own community is truscum behavior. An individual person has the final word on who they are, what they're called and how to correctly refer to them.
My only problem is when i use singular they them for someone and they have a problem with it. I speak hungarian natively which has no grammatical gender nor gendered pronouns and it makes so much more sense. The whole thing about gender neutral language doesnt exist. But what makes me mad is that other languages that have genders solved it while english is still messing around and every time i use singular they or dude/guy as gender neutral, someone with neopronouns or a right winger has to point out how im incorrect. This is of course not pointed at those who use neopronouns, just as someone who speaks a language where pronouns dont matter it feels kinda useless.
You're allowed to make mistakes and find it difficult. You're not allowed to decide that you're not even going to try. If you are at that point, your options are to get it right, or to not engage with the person in question.
take note bluesky this is how to build trust and safety 💙
and it's another reason why i love it here 💞
Very good post, I agree with everything said.
However I have a followup issue, I use Voyager primarily for Lemmy. I don't have any way to see bios (to my knowledge) in the app, so therefore I cannot see pronouns unless they are in someone's username. I have one of the "user tags" set up for drag specifically and will for any other neopronouns needed, but that requires someone correcting me before I can create it.
My question is, is there a way that this issue can be overcome? Id prefer to not move apps if it's possible as i like Voyagers UI but I will if I must.
Also, this is not really related, but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj? I heard that there was some drama but I can't figure out anything other than the NCD@SJW community mod having beef with blahaj, but not anything between the SJW instance itself.
The rule isn't "Get peoples pronouns correct 100% of the time, never make mistakes, or get banned". It's "Respect peoples pronouns"
You're allowed to make mistakes. You're allowed to not know. What you're not allowed to do is invalidate and erase the pronouns of people who have made them clear.
It's news to me!
ah I see. Thanks for the reply!
Well, in that case I assume the 'drama' was the issue from noncredibledefense and someone just got that and ShitJustWorks confused lol
This?
lol, I fear this will happen more and more often because of how complicated federation is and how many don't understand it.
What's a neo pronoun? Is it the same as pronouns?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopronoun
Tldr
Pronouns: he/him/himself
Neo pronouns: zir/zirs/zirself
Noun-self pronouns: Kitten/Kittenself
Is there any good sources for further reading on noun-self pronouns?
This is the article cited in Wikipedia: https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/what-s-playful-what-s-deeply-meaningful-and-what-s-being-mean-a-guide-to-neopronouns-1.4539471
I was on Tumblr at the time but I didn't realize my fellow Tumblrinas invented the noun-self pronouns
It's a new pronoun.
My interactions with people complaining about this rule led me to delete my .world account and dust this one off from way back when I first joined Lemmy and was trying to figure things out. Regardless of the behavior of a person, I staunchly will never purposefully misgender them/use the wrong pronouns. If I do it to someone else, then I'm telling the world that it's okay to dismiss anyone's identity given the right justification. And that's patently wrong and shitty.
I'd rather be part of an instance that protects identity, that is made for minorities and those who are often abused by the heteronormative world. Thank you for enforcing this and making a space where I can feel safe as a trans woman.
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/respecting-neopronouns-may-lower-your-dementia-risk-d0ae3b0152f6
Is it possible to block an instance on Voyager?
humans are not perfect so both sides could be wrong or both correct or some mix so idk im being hypothetical so i expect to be incorrect