ID: Drawing of a duck billed platypus underwater, they're wearing a rainbow coloured t shirt and a pink bum-bag, and saying: "Ally is not something you can self-identify as, it's a title that you earn. Let your actions speak for themselves!"
Credit: Sophie Labelle
Ada - 1.1yr
Wow, this thread had me bringing out the ban hammer a lot!
13
tfw_no_toiletpaper @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
Yeah and judging by the modlog, pretty arbitrary. I was expecting transphobia or similar, but the banned people were just annoyed by OPs "smugness" and then ban reasons are "you're not the victim" or "playing victim when told he has to earn allyship"??? These are not real reasons no? Im not suggesting a power trip but are you OPs aunt in need of defending them or what.
14
Ada - 1.1yr
There is no space on this instance or its communities for "allies" who think the tone of queer folks comics is the real issue that needs to be talked about
That's not true though. Posting/commenting radical thought is a role that helps. Sure, it's not much, but it's certainly not nothing.
When there's an open investigation against me and I have to lay low for a while, it directly improves my life to have leftist content to enjoy, which in turn keeps me going so I can continue to improve the lives of others
Someone spending their time making a meme for a leftist community is also effectively making propaganda that I'll later text to someone, which may further radicalize them, even if just by a little.
Marx himself literally said:
All social life is essentially practical. All the mysteries which lead theory towards mysticism find their rational solution in human praxis and in the comprehension of this praxis. (8th thesis)
Just because social media didn't exist then doesn't mean it doesn't count now
Edit: also, within this specific context, it definitely can directly improve people's lives to see allyship simply signified both in-person and online. It personally makes me feel safer, and that's important
37
Tar_Alcaran - 1.1yr
Hell, you don't even need to be particularly active. Even telling your weird coworker that gay people are people too might help.
You don't get applause for it, but it helps.
26
m0darn @lemmy.ca - 1.1yr
I'm not a person with a minority Sexual Orientation/Gender Identity, but here are my two cents: I think upvoting supportive content in a space that's safe and welcoming to people with minority SOGIs is zero impact, online commenting in that same welcoming space is about as impactful as upvoting in a less welcoming space, both of which are directly adjacent to zero impact. I reckon that negatively reacting to an SOGI antagonist (eg the coworker you mentioned), is an appreciable act of allyship, more impact than a token gesture during Pride. I'm not sure if it would be higher or lower than an anonymous complaint to HR about discriminatory language.
1
PapaStevesy @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
You affected my life by causing me to write this stupid comment proving your even stupider comment wrong. And now I've affected your life, because you've been confronted with your own faulty logic, and even if you don't respond, you still thought about it and you can never not have.
4
Adm_Drummer @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
What is allyship to you?
Does one need to be overtly politically active or can one simply change minds in their social circles?
Must they sign petitions and call politicians or can they simply be a comforting or understanding shoulder to a marginalised person?
How much legwork is required to be an Ally? Is there a scorecard to keep in order to meet criteria?
Obviously, passive acceptance without any action isn't explicit allyship but must one be openly militant about LGBT issues in order to be considered an ally?
Does the real answer not lie somewhere in between? Maybe on a spectrum or sliding scale?
17
alcoholicorn @lemmy.ml - 1.1yr
The real answer is measured in how your actions have affected the lives of the people you claim to be an ally of.
No, this isn't always practical to measure, but if someone is saying "I'm an ally because I identify as an ally", I'm certain they have done absolutely nothing to protect/advance the rights of LGBT+ people.
3
Adm_Drummer @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
So in your opinion indirect action may as well be inaction?
Say I have coworkers with certain opinions on gendering people, use of pronouns or who still use dated terms like "Tranny" or "Shemale".
I spend my days correcting them when they misgender or reminding them of acceptable words to describe people. I have political discussions where we come to terms about how LGBT rights are human rights. They've corrected their behaviour and now speak of LGBT folks in a kinder light.
I don't directly see how those actions affect LGBT folks. I don't have tangible evidence I have made a person's life better through my actions.
Am I an Ally or not?
13
alcoholicorn @lemmy.ml - 1.1yr
No, indirect action is a form of action, stopping a transphobe from being transphobic is a form of allyship, because presumably, you've saved a trans person from feeling unsafe around that person.
6
Adm_Drummer @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
Because you stated that, on the presumption their actions prevented transphobia, that person would be an ally. But that presumption can only be fact checked by themselves anyway; Does this not mean then, that a person should have the right to label themselves an ally if they self-assess their actions as allyship?
Or does someone have to ally-check each of their actions once performed with some sort of... council or committee, as I have here?
11
alcoholicorn @lemmy.ml - 1.1yr
It's not that deep, we don't need a rigorous philosophically consistent way to measure allyship.
2
Tar_Alcaran - 1.1yr
Ok, so proclaiming yourself an ally doesn't make you an ally, unless 1 person notices it?
I feel that someone noticing it is a part of "proclaiming", but I agree with you. I do think you worded it rather strictly and awkwardly. Telling yourself that you're an ally is worthless, telling someone else has value.
10
Ookami38 @sh.itjust.works - 1.1yr
Part of it may be identifying as an ally as a first step. If you internaliz "I am an ally" your future actions will probably more align with that identity. People like to be true to themselves, let them identify as good things without gatekeeping it.
13
Catoblepas - 1.1yr
I think making it part of your identity rather than something youâre trying to get good at, like an exercise or craft youâve never done before, makes people more likely to be defensive about the ways theyâre not âperfectâ allies.
I donât think what youâre getting at is wrong, it could be helpful to some people to have something like that to tell themselves for motivation. Something like âI will do what I can to be an allyâ or âI will be an ally todayâ might be better; itâs an aspirational thing that needs constant effort, like staying fit.
Which I realize isnât super fun and sexy the way having a word to put in your social media profile is. But itâs an âany man who must say âI am the kingâ is no true kingâ situation, you know?
8
Ookami38 @sh.itjust.works - 1.1yr
Counterpoint. Yes, it's anecdotal, but the biggest success my mother has had in kicking her cigarette habit has been identifying herself as a non-smoker. She did that before cutting back at all, and now she's from 35/day to 6. Every other attempt, she's identified as a smoker trying to quit, and it's failed.
Same theory - let them identify as what they want to be. Once they identify as such, the behavior will follow easier than if they're saying "I'm trying to be an ally".
7
alcoholicorn @lemmy.ml - 1.1yr
OK, that person is on their way to becoming an ally.
There is still no physical difference in the world brought on by thoughts that exist only in their head. Theory without practice.
1
Ookami38 @sh.itjust.works - 1.1yr
And your denying them any openness and acceptance as someone actively trying to become better, even in the smallest of steps, is denying said people reason to grow. Shit doesn't happen overnight.
9
snek_boi @lemmy.ml - 1.1yr
Values guide action. Humans can use cognitive rules to exhibit entirely new behaviors in entirely new situations, behaviors that are consistent with the cognitive rules. Theory may not be relevant if the situation doesnât activate the relevant neural networks, but if someone doesnât have âally valuesâ how do you think they will behave in the future?
9
alcoholicorn @lemmy.ml - 1.1yr
I should have been more clear, I meant it's irrelevant to whether one is an ally or not, because that is determined by practice.
3
I'll be on ShareMySims@lemmy.dbzer0.com - 1.1yr
If someone feels like this post (or any other boundary set by the people they claim to want to support) is keeping them from being an ally, they never were one in the first place.
13
PotatoesFall @discuss.tchncs.de - 1.1yr
I don't think this post is keeping anyone from being an ally, it just kinda sounds like there is some authority that decides if you are an ally or not.
I think your core message is "don't go around telling people you're an ally, go BE an ally", but it could be misinterpreted.
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IzzyScissor @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
There IS an authority - it's whatever group you're claiming to help. They're the ones who get to decide if you actually ARE helping or not, and it works like this for a bunch of honorary titles.
10
Tar_Alcaran - 1.1yr
Are you saying that everyone who disagrees with you personally isn't an ally of the entire group?
12
catsarebadpeople - 1.1yr
Absolutely unhinged
7
I'll be on ShareMySims@lemmy.dbzer0.com - 1.1yr
I'll take that over being a piece of shit bigot.. ÂŻ\_(ă)_/ÂŻ
1
catsarebadpeople - 1.1yr
You live in a fantasy world. Nothing you believe is real
1
misterdoctor - 1.1yr
Counterpoint: you can absolutely self identify as an Ally. For example, I self identity as an Ally and there ainât shit this adorable platypus can do to stop me.
Iâm an Ally because I choose to be, by my words and my actions and the example I set for my children every day. I donât need an attaboy from any marginalized group to confirm Iâm on the right side of history. We do whatâs right because itâs right. Full stop.
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IzzyScissor @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
While I agree with the sentiment, it's like labelling yourself "a good neighbor" or a "best friend". You don't get to decide if you're "a good neighbor" or not - your neighbors do. You don't get to decide if you are someone's best friend - they do. In the exact same way, you don't get to decide if you're an ally or not - the group that you're allied with does.
You can strive to be a good person and identify with being one if that label has been given to you, but certain labels, including "ally", aren't ones you can just give yourself.
23
misterdoctor - 1.1yr
I can also respect OP and the artists point of view (if theyâre not the same individual, not sure if OP is sharing an original piece or someone elseâs work) but I just disagree that people donât get to âbe called Alliesâ unless someone else gives them that title. Being an ally to me is not an honorific, itâs a series of choices.
14
IzzyScissor @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
It's a series of choices, but those choices can be misguided or wrong without maintaining communication with the group. It also easily slips into the "white savior" trope.
Imagine a person calling themselves a queer ally while actively protesting "LGB without the T". They are absolutely NOT an ally to the queer community, but without checking in with queer people, they wouldn't know. Queer people then have to argue with "an ally" to get them to understand why that rhetoric is harmful, which just puts everyone further back.
So, people can call themselves allies, but no one should believe it unless it's been attributed to them by the group they're allied with.
10
Dragon Rider (drag) - 1.1yr
Drag thinks you've misunderstood the post. The post says you earn the title of ally through your actions. It doesn't say you earn it through someone else's actions. Your actions are your choices. Someone else calling you an ally isn't your action, it's theirs. So the post is not saying that queer people bestow the title on you, it's saying you bestow it on yourself. By doing good things.
3
I'll be on ShareMySims@lemmy.dbzer0.com - 1.1yr
Centring yourself, talking over, and refusing to listen to the marginalised people whose side you claim to be on - the self identified ally personified!
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misterdoctor - 1.1yr
Genuinely impressive how ignorant and presumptive this reply is. Iâm assuming youâre young and Iâm giving you the benefit of the doubt that your intentions are good here. It seems like youâve had some bad experiences with bad faith allies in the past and if so, that sucks, and Iâm sorry for that. But this is misplaced rage and your energy would probably be better spent elsewhere. I am not your enemy and I never will be.
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criitz @reddthat.com - 1.1yr
No one is in charge of how someone identifies except themselves.
23
Catoblepas - 1.1yr
Taking that idea and making it about how people can self-identify as allies regardless of their actions is incredibly distasteful.
3
Dragon Rider (drag) - 1.1yr
So you're saying that OP could choose to identify as your significant other, and it would be entirely OP's decision with none of your input?
2
immutable @lemm.ee - 1.1yr
You keep being an ass to people and you wonât have to worry about anyone wanting to be your ally.
14
catsarebadpeople - 1.1yr
Wtf? Lol
3
N.E.P.T.R - 1.1yr
I identify as ally cus I am gay and I think it is funny to exclaim "I'm just an ally" to my gay friends.
7
JackbyDev - 1.1yr
There definitely are queer folks who aren't allies, though. The whole trans exclusionary LGB thing is an example.
2
N.E.P.T.R - 1.1yr
True
1
TwigletSparkle - 1.1yr
Counterpoint: you can absolutely identify as a socialist. For example, the German Nazi party identified as Socialist and there aint shit you can do to stop them /s
also
by my words and actions and the example I set
he confused, but he got the spirit XD
6
Adm_Drummer @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
Oooh there's one for my bingo card. Comment to Nazis in one.
19
Dragon Rider (drag) - 1.1yr
Who do you self identify as an ally of? France? Bosnia? Laos? Do you have a treaty?
1
CuriousRefugee @lemmy.ml - 1.1yr
Before I realized and came out as bi, I was in the GSA (gay-straight alliance) in high school as a "straight." My state was voting to ban gay marriage at the time, and we campaigned against it. I got just as much if not more hate from people than the LGBT members. Maybe because they viewed them as a lost cause? It was usually adults yelling at a 17-year-old kid for being a "betrayer" and a "pervert lover" (I liked that one), just because I supported two consenting adults marrying regardless of gender. Staunch allies definitely earn the title.
46
wick @lemm.ee - 1.1yr
I got mine from the Emperor of Gay People in the mail just this Friday. I framed it and put it next to my n-word pass on the mantle.
36
Ms. ArmoredThirteen - 1.1yr
Is that like a one time n-word pass or are you fully certified?
10
wick @lemm.ee - 1.1yr
Certified, but I have to kiss Jesse Jackson's ass every 3 years and maintain NAACP membership for recertification
4
LANIK2000 @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
Slightly unrelated rant.
I'm tried of these culture wars. It's complete nonsense. I'm not particularly LGBT+ but it shouldn't matter. This is about freedom for fucks sake! People just want to live and exercise their human rights! Anybody telling others they mustn't exist their way is an enemy of humanity! The fact that people get denied jobs and even have their rights restricted, just because some asshole finds out the ID doesn't match is fucking repulsive!
Recently had a chat with my aunt and she just "you can't expect people to immediately accept changes", shut the fuck up! It's not a change! It's a core value that's been in our constitution for longer than any of us have been alive. But clearly, despite being raise on these values, I'm the only one who believes them. Like some fucking santa claus shit!
31
nifty - 1.1yr
Divide and conquer is a strategy as old as time. Canât fault you for trying.
27
Kalkaline - 1.1yr
Help us out though, what can we do to be better allies? I try to be a good one, but I don't know if I'm coming up short.
25
Captain Aggravated - 1.1yr
To the kind of person that draws and publishes a gay platypus comic? As much performative kowtowing as possible knowing that nothing can ever be enough. Consistently voting against conservative bullshit and treating gay people like you'd treat anyone else your entire life certainly isn't enough. It's like how the Westboro Baptists don't think you're a real Christian unless you're currently lighting a family planning center on fire. The people who are REALLY FUCKING INTO IT are mostly just making the moderates on their side look like puckered assholes.
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Roflmasterbigpimp - 1.1yr
Is it not about being as fair as you can? This is my approach at least .__.
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valentinesmith - 1.1yr
Thatâs honestly a terribly broad question.
What are the people you are allies to telling you they want or are missing? Are you helping them in achieving what they want?
What are you doing for them besides that and do you think it is the right thing to do?
And yeah I donât know, coming up short is a pretty loaded phrase. Some struggles we might still lose and still we have to fight regardless and relentlessly. And if you âfall shortâ just try to do more, as well as the fact that we cannot all provide the same kind of support so its gonna be very personally biased either way
5
Dragon Rider (drag) - 1.1yr
When you see someone being queerphobic, call them out. Tell them they're wrong. And if they waste time arguing with you, that's time they're too busy to attack a queer person to their face.
4
I'll be on ShareMySims@lemmy.dbzer0.com - 1.1yr
Step 1: learn how to do your own work instead of expecting (or even demanding) marginalised people expend our time, energy, and emotional labour doing it for you.
4
Elgenzay @lemmy.ml - 1.1yr
You're doing everything you can to push well-meaning people away lol
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Adm_Drummer @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
Feels like dealing in absolutes to me.
You're either all in or not in at all.
"If you don't support the troops feel free to stand in front of them."
Can't I just be outspoken in my social circles and attempt to affect change at the lowest levels, thus spreading my message amongst people I can relate to?
Nope. Sign petitions and call politicians or you're just a poser.
Or so this post seems to say.
15
I'll be on ShareMySims@lemmy.dbzer0.com - 1.1yr
If this is what it takes to push you away, it was never about being an ally in the first place, but about stroking your own ego.
1
Milk_Sheikh @lemm.ee - 1.1yr
This smug copypasta can be applied to any minority or marginalized group, but itâs still not helpful.
Intersectionalism is important because everyone has a different experience - to expect me to internalize their struggles by reading a book or watching a video essay is absurd. You need to tell your story, we need to give space and listen. Crossing your arms and saying âdo your own researchâ is unproductive - a well meaning ânormieâ who is not terminally online doesnât know where to start, autodidacts almost always have terribly shallow knowledge pools.
You, the person living through your experience, are the subject matter expert - why reject that authority that people have granted you and shown that they are ready and willing to listen to you?
14
I'll be on ShareMySims@lemmy.dbzer0.com - 1.1yr
You need to tell your story, we need to give space and listen.
Lmfao, not how it works, labour digger.
Edit just to clarify: Millions of people have already written about their lived experience of oppression (as a disabled person, as a queer person, as a Black person, as a Muslim, as a Jew, as every. single. marginalised group out there), you people don't get to demand a personalised education from every marginalised person you come across, we don't owe you shitespecially when you won't even open a search engine and make the most basic effort to learn for yourself.
1
Milk_Sheikh @lemm.ee - 1.1yr
And like I said, your average normie does not exist in the circles and spaces where those stories are highlighted and shared. Their biggest exposure may very well be a literature teacher years ago at school, broadcast newsâ puddle deep coverage of the topic, or workplace sensitivity pamphlets.
You can scold them to do better, to do your own work, just like you did to the prior commenter who was asking a genuine question from a place of well meaning ignorance, and wanted to do better and requested help with a starting point. And you basically told them to gtfo - great message, screw them for exposing their lock of understanding and trying (humble as it may be) to be better.
I have a bigoted uncle, and despite knowing and being in a circle with a trans woman, he still deadnamed her regularly behind her back and openly confessed astounded bewilderment as to âwhy anyone does thatâ. Until I shared a personal anecdote of my lightbulb moment that took me from (admittedly) privileged indifference and ignorance, to understanding why people transition and how living your life wearing the mask society assigned you whilst grappling of gender dysphoria destroys you slowly from the inside. I had no personal struggle to share beyond that understanding, I could have also smugly told him to âdo your own readingâ - but guess what? He no longer deadnames her, and more and more frequently mentions her positively without the follow-up commentary. THAT is the kind of change that can exist if you try to meet people where they are at.
Nobody says you owe them emotional/mental labor to be seen or deemed worthy of human rights, but snapping at potential allies turns away people who might come onside. I was one of those people, who could have very easily continued to do nothing.
1
vala @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
This attitude is actually absurd
11
Kalkaline - 1.1yr
I guess I'll stop trying to improve.
2
transhetwarrior (he/him) - 1.1yr
I've had people misgender me and try to convince me not to transition and then go claim to be trans allies because they don't call people slurs and will say that killing trans people is bad if asked
24
I'll be on ShareMySims@lemmy.dbzer0.com - 1.1yr
That sucks. It's bigotry and then gaslighting, and then on top of it all we're somehow to blame for them being that way because we're not eternally grateful and fawn all over them for reluctantly giving us the barest of bare minimum decency and respect, and therefor leave them no choice (in their eyes of course).
12
TheReturnOfPEB @reddthat.com - 1.1yr
it can be as simple as flying a rainbow flag
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JackbyDev - 1.1yr
My wife and I are queer and have a pride flag on our house. One day a couple of kids came to our door while we were out of town. I was very worried because they were young and alone in the evening and we weren't home. We answered them with the doorbell camera. They said they were queer and just wanted us to know that they're happy to see pride flags in the area to know they're not alone.
6
jerakor @startrek.website - 1.1yr
Taking actions to be an Ally has risks for folks in some places. Where I am LBGTQA+ support is the norm and doesn't really need to be spoken and when it is I've never heard anyone in over 10 years say a negative thing.
I have online though seen folks who try to speak up in Allyship of someone else get taken down. Subjected to purity tests by folks in an LGBTQA+ supporting community. It felt like the same bi erasure I've experienced and the same transphobia I've seen from parts of the LG community in the 2000s. It's like saying someone isn't gay if they haven't come out. All it does is lessen the crew.
LGBTQA+ shouldnt be treated as a club with a rainbow dress code. It should be the future default standpoint of all of humanity.
9
JackbyDev - 1.1yr
ITT people are thinking this post is about them, but it feels like it's more targeted at the "The A is for ally!" types. (Thinking A in LGBTQIA is for ally instead of asexual.)
9
I'll be on ShareMySims@lemmy.dbzer0.com - 1.1yr
Why not both? đ€·ââïž
I feel like the two groups are close to a circle in a Venn diagram - privileged people there to make it about themselves (in the form of self aggrandization and claiming non-existent victimhood and marginalisation) rather than about the marginalised people they claim to support (and only do superficially and entirely conditionally).
1
F/15/Cali@threads.net - 1.1yr
Hmm, I wonder what I managed to accomplish in the womb
5
Nexy - 1.1yr
I don't like the "Ally" term. I don't get it. Feminist thinks the equality of man and woman, but the existence of the ally term make a distinction into feminist and allys, that it's just a genre thing. So you are saying there are no equality between male and famele at all.
2
YarHarSuperstar @lemmy.world - 1.1yr
Literally what are you even talking about
33
m0darn @lemmy.ca - 1.1yr
/u/Nexy is confused about the difference between a political view and an identity.
They are correct that there isn't really a difference between being an ally of a political movement like Feminism and being a member of that movement (although I think that movements/organizations with different priorities can be allies with a movement like Feminism, e.g.) a person is either a Feminist or not a Feminist there's nobody that's an ally of Feminism.
But there is a difference between advocating for rights for people with minority Sexual Orientation and Gender Identities (SOGIs), and being a person that is 2SLGBTQI. If we had a word that encapsulated the movement like Feminism does then we wouldn't need to tack on "ally". SOGI-ism? Good luck.
5
gravityowl @lemm.ee - 1.1yr
I too am very confused and would like to know
1
Maia [she/her] - 1.1yr
I think they interpret "ally" to mean "male feminist"
8
Nexy - 1.1yr
yeah, that.
2
JackbyDev - 1.1yr
Judging by the rainbow shirt and where it's been posted to (and the discussion on it), this isn't about allie of women but allies LGBT.
2
Nexy - 1.1yr
Yeah, I figure it out pretty late. In my contry, ally its only used in femimist terms and not lgtbq+ ones, so I wasn't aware.
3
snek_boi @lemmy.ml - 1.1yr
Depending on who you ask, feminism includes the entire LGBTQIA+ spectrum.
To break free from rigid and limiting thinking, Cixous proposes to "write from the body". When you pay attention to your own experience, without rigid categories, you can be free. You can define your body in any way. You can act in any way. You can interpret the world in any way.
This, in Cixous' view, is feminism. Feminism is about breaking down barriers and empowering people to be free.
A woman can choose to work and buy property without being rejected.
A man can choose to be vulnerable with his male friends without being rejected.
A woman can choose to accept a woman as a partner and not be rejected.
A transexual can choose to transition and not be rejected.
A man can choose to not have sex and not be rejected.
It is all valid. And it is all feminism. In this view, feminist terms and LGBTQIA+ terms serve exactly the same function: they all help break barriers and empower people to choose the lives that they want to choose.
ShareMySims in 196
Allyship rule
ID: Drawing of a duck billed platypus underwater, they're wearing a rainbow coloured t shirt and a pink bum-bag, and saying: "Ally is not something you can self-identify as, it's a title that you earn. Let your actions speak for themselves!"
Credit: Sophie Labelle
Wow, this thread had me bringing out the ban hammer a lot!
Yeah and judging by the modlog, pretty arbitrary. I was expecting transphobia or similar, but the banned people were just annoyed by OPs "smugness" and then ban reasons are "you're not the victim" or "playing victim when told he has to earn allyship"??? These are not real reasons no? Im not suggesting a power trip but are you OPs aunt in need of defending them or what.
There is no space on this instance or its communities for "allies" who think the tone of queer folks comics is the real issue that needs to be talked about
Thank you so much for diving in to the cesspit, I knew there would be some push back, there always is, but I didn't think it'd get this bad (and I have a lot of these people blocked already, so I can only imagine, because I'm not going to look, not today satan!). Sorry you have to spend your time dealing with the mess! đ©
I agree with speaking with your actions here, but at the same time, this seems like some weirdly unnecessary gatekeeping.
If you're not actually doing any allyship, in what sense are you an ally?
Theoretical allyship is irrelevant.
Simply saying out loud you support it IS supporting it.
I mean, it's the minimum amount, but thats more than none.
Posting is not praxis. You have affected nobody's lives or material conditions through posting.
That's not true though. Posting/commenting radical thought is a role that helps. Sure, it's not much, but it's certainly not nothing.
When there's an open investigation against me and I have to lay low for a while, it directly improves my life to have leftist content to enjoy, which in turn keeps me going so I can continue to improve the lives of others
Someone spending their time making a meme for a leftist community is also effectively making propaganda that I'll later text to someone, which may further radicalize them, even if just by a little.
Marx himself literally said:
Just because social media didn't exist then doesn't mean it doesn't count now
Edit: also, within this specific context, it definitely can directly improve people's lives to see allyship simply signified both in-person and online. It personally makes me feel safer, and that's important
Hell, you don't even need to be particularly active. Even telling your weird coworker that gay people are people too might help.
You don't get applause for it, but it helps.
I'm not a person with a minority Sexual Orientation/Gender Identity, but here are my two cents: I think upvoting supportive content in a space that's safe and welcoming to people with minority SOGIs is zero impact, online commenting in that same welcoming space is about as impactful as upvoting in a less welcoming space, both of which are directly adjacent to zero impact. I reckon that negatively reacting to an SOGI antagonist (eg the coworker you mentioned), is an appreciable act of allyship, more impact than a token gesture during Pride. I'm not sure if it would be higher or lower than an anonymous complaint to HR about discriminatory language.
You affected my life by causing me to write this stupid comment proving your even stupider comment wrong. And now I've affected your life, because you've been confronted with your own faulty logic, and even if you don't respond, you still thought about it and you can never not have.
What is allyship to you?
Does one need to be overtly politically active or can one simply change minds in their social circles?
Must they sign petitions and call politicians or can they simply be a comforting or understanding shoulder to a marginalised person?
How much legwork is required to be an Ally? Is there a scorecard to keep in order to meet criteria?
Obviously, passive acceptance without any action isn't explicit allyship but must one be openly militant about LGBT issues in order to be considered an ally?
Does the real answer not lie somewhere in between? Maybe on a spectrum or sliding scale?
The real answer is measured in how your actions have affected the lives of the people you claim to be an ally of.
No, this isn't always practical to measure, but if someone is saying "I'm an ally because I identify as an ally", I'm certain they have done absolutely nothing to protect/advance the rights of LGBT+ people.
So in your opinion indirect action may as well be inaction?
Say I have coworkers with certain opinions on gendering people, use of pronouns or who still use dated terms like "Tranny" or "Shemale".
I spend my days correcting them when they misgender or reminding them of acceptable words to describe people. I have political discussions where we come to terms about how LGBT rights are human rights. They've corrected their behaviour and now speak of LGBT folks in a kinder light.
I don't directly see how those actions affect LGBT folks. I don't have tangible evidence I have made a person's life better through my actions.
Am I an Ally or not?
No, indirect action is a form of action, stopping a transphobe from being transphobic is a form of allyship, because presumably, you've saved a trans person from feeling unsafe around that person.
Because you stated that, on the presumption their actions prevented transphobia, that person would be an ally. But that presumption can only be fact checked by themselves anyway; Does this not mean then, that a person should have the right to label themselves an ally if they self-assess their actions as allyship?
Or does someone have to ally-check each of their actions once performed with some sort of... council or committee, as I have here?
It's not that deep, we don't need a rigorous philosophically consistent way to measure allyship.
Ok, so proclaiming yourself an ally doesn't make you an ally, unless 1 person notices it?
I feel that someone noticing it is a part of "proclaiming", but I agree with you. I do think you worded it rather strictly and awkwardly. Telling yourself that you're an ally is worthless, telling someone else has value.
Part of it may be identifying as an ally as a first step. If you internaliz "I am an ally" your future actions will probably more align with that identity. People like to be true to themselves, let them identify as good things without gatekeeping it.
I think making it part of your identity rather than something youâre trying to get good at, like an exercise or craft youâve never done before, makes people more likely to be defensive about the ways theyâre not âperfectâ allies.
I donât think what youâre getting at is wrong, it could be helpful to some people to have something like that to tell themselves for motivation. Something like âI will do what I can to be an allyâ or âI will be an ally todayâ might be better; itâs an aspirational thing that needs constant effort, like staying fit.
Which I realize isnât super fun and sexy the way having a word to put in your social media profile is. But itâs an âany man who must say âI am the kingâ is no true kingâ situation, you know?
Counterpoint. Yes, it's anecdotal, but the biggest success my mother has had in kicking her cigarette habit has been identifying herself as a non-smoker. She did that before cutting back at all, and now she's from 35/day to 6. Every other attempt, she's identified as a smoker trying to quit, and it's failed.
Same theory - let them identify as what they want to be. Once they identify as such, the behavior will follow easier than if they're saying "I'm trying to be an ally".
OK, that person is on their way to becoming an ally.
There is still no physical difference in the world brought on by thoughts that exist only in their head. Theory without practice.
And your denying them any openness and acceptance as someone actively trying to become better, even in the smallest of steps, is denying said people reason to grow. Shit doesn't happen overnight.
Values guide action. Humans can use cognitive rules to exhibit entirely new behaviors in entirely new situations, behaviors that are consistent with the cognitive rules. Theory may not be relevant if the situation doesnât activate the relevant neural networks, but if someone doesnât have âally valuesâ how do you think they will behave in the future?
I should have been more clear, I meant it's irrelevant to whether one is an ally or not, because that is determined by practice.
If someone feels like this post (or any other boundary set by the people they claim to want to support) is keeping them from being an ally, they never were one in the first place.
I don't think this post is keeping anyone from being an ally, it just kinda sounds like there is some authority that decides if you are an ally or not.
I think your core message is "don't go around telling people you're an ally, go BE an ally", but it could be misinterpreted.
There IS an authority - it's whatever group you're claiming to help. They're the ones who get to decide if you actually ARE helping or not, and it works like this for a bunch of honorary titles.
Are you saying that everyone who disagrees with you personally isn't an ally of the entire group?
Absolutely unhinged
I'll take that over being a piece of shit bigot.. ÂŻ\_(ă)_/ÂŻ
You live in a fantasy world. Nothing you believe is real
Counterpoint: you can absolutely self identify as an Ally. For example, I self identity as an Ally and there ainât shit this adorable platypus can do to stop me.
Iâm an Ally because I choose to be, by my words and my actions and the example I set for my children every day. I donât need an attaboy from any marginalized group to confirm Iâm on the right side of history. We do whatâs right because itâs right. Full stop.
While I agree with the sentiment, it's like labelling yourself "a good neighbor" or a "best friend". You don't get to decide if you're "a good neighbor" or not - your neighbors do. You don't get to decide if you are someone's best friend - they do. In the exact same way, you don't get to decide if you're an ally or not - the group that you're allied with does.
You can strive to be a good person and identify with being one if that label has been given to you, but certain labels, including "ally", aren't ones you can just give yourself.
I can also respect OP and the artists point of view (if theyâre not the same individual, not sure if OP is sharing an original piece or someone elseâs work) but I just disagree that people donât get to âbe called Alliesâ unless someone else gives them that title. Being an ally to me is not an honorific, itâs a series of choices.
It's a series of choices, but those choices can be misguided or wrong without maintaining communication with the group. It also easily slips into the "white savior" trope.
Imagine a person calling themselves a queer ally while actively protesting "LGB without the T". They are absolutely NOT an ally to the queer community, but without checking in with queer people, they wouldn't know. Queer people then have to argue with "an ally" to get them to understand why that rhetoric is harmful, which just puts everyone further back.
So, people can call themselves allies, but no one should believe it unless it's been attributed to them by the group they're allied with.
Drag thinks you've misunderstood the post. The post says you earn the title of ally through your actions. It doesn't say you earn it through someone else's actions. Your actions are your choices. Someone else calling you an ally isn't your action, it's theirs. So the post is not saying that queer people bestow the title on you, it's saying you bestow it on yourself. By doing good things.
Centring yourself, talking over, and refusing to listen to the marginalised people whose side you claim to be on - the self identified ally personified!
Genuinely impressive how ignorant and presumptive this reply is. Iâm assuming youâre young and Iâm giving you the benefit of the doubt that your intentions are good here. It seems like youâve had some bad experiences with bad faith allies in the past and if so, that sucks, and Iâm sorry for that. But this is misplaced rage and your energy would probably be better spent elsewhere. I am not your enemy and I never will be.
No one is in charge of how someone identifies except themselves.
Taking that idea and making it about how people can self-identify as allies regardless of their actions is incredibly distasteful.
So you're saying that OP could choose to identify as your significant other, and it would be entirely OP's decision with none of your input?
You keep being an ass to people and you wonât have to worry about anyone wanting to be your ally.
Wtf? Lol
I identify as ally cus I am gay and I think it is funny to exclaim "I'm just an ally" to my gay friends.
There definitely are queer folks who aren't allies, though. The whole trans exclusionary LGB thing is an example.
True
Counterpoint: you can absolutely identify as a socialist. For example, the German Nazi party identified as Socialist and there aint shit you can do to stop them /s
also
he confused, but he got the spirit XD
Oooh there's one for my bingo card. Comment to Nazis in one.
Who do you self identify as an ally of? France? Bosnia? Laos? Do you have a treaty?
Before I realized and came out as bi, I was in the GSA (gay-straight alliance) in high school as a "straight." My state was voting to ban gay marriage at the time, and we campaigned against it. I got just as much if not more hate from people than the LGBT members. Maybe because they viewed them as a lost cause? It was usually adults yelling at a 17-year-old kid for being a "betrayer" and a "pervert lover" (I liked that one), just because I supported two consenting adults marrying regardless of gender. Staunch allies definitely earn the title.
I got mine from the Emperor of Gay People in the mail just this Friday. I framed it and put it next to my n-word pass on the mantle.
Is that like a one time n-word pass or are you fully certified?
Certified, but I have to kiss Jesse Jackson's ass every 3 years and maintain NAACP membership for recertification
Slightly unrelated rant.
I'm tried of these culture wars. It's complete nonsense. I'm not particularly LGBT+ but it shouldn't matter. This is about freedom for fucks sake! People just want to live and exercise their human rights! Anybody telling others they mustn't exist their way is an enemy of humanity! The fact that people get denied jobs and even have their rights restricted, just because some asshole finds out the ID doesn't match is fucking repulsive!
Recently had a chat with my aunt and she just "you can't expect people to immediately accept changes", shut the fuck up! It's not a change! It's a core value that's been in our constitution for longer than any of us have been alive. But clearly, despite being raise on these values, I'm the only one who believes them. Like some fucking santa claus shit!
Divide and conquer is a strategy as old as time. Canât fault you for trying.
Help us out though, what can we do to be better allies? I try to be a good one, but I don't know if I'm coming up short.
To the kind of person that draws and publishes a gay platypus comic? As much performative kowtowing as possible knowing that nothing can ever be enough. Consistently voting against conservative bullshit and treating gay people like you'd treat anyone else your entire life certainly isn't enough. It's like how the Westboro Baptists don't think you're a real Christian unless you're currently lighting a family planning center on fire. The people who are REALLY FUCKING INTO IT are mostly just making the moderates on their side look like puckered assholes.
Is it not about being as fair as you can? This is my approach at least .__.
Thatâs honestly a terribly broad question.
What are the people you are allies to telling you they want or are missing? Are you helping them in achieving what they want?
What are you doing for them besides that and do you think it is the right thing to do?
And yeah I donât know, coming up short is a pretty loaded phrase. Some struggles we might still lose and still we have to fight regardless and relentlessly. And if you âfall shortâ just try to do more, as well as the fact that we cannot all provide the same kind of support so its gonna be very personally biased either way
When you see someone being queerphobic, call them out. Tell them they're wrong. And if they waste time arguing with you, that's time they're too busy to attack a queer person to their face.
Step 1: learn how to do your own work instead of expecting (or even demanding) marginalised people expend our time, energy, and emotional labour doing it for you.
You're doing everything you can to push well-meaning people away lol
Feels like dealing in absolutes to me.
You're either all in or not in at all.
"If you don't support the troops feel free to stand in front of them."
Can't I just be outspoken in my social circles and attempt to affect change at the lowest levels, thus spreading my message amongst people I can relate to?
Nope. Sign petitions and call politicians or you're just a poser.
Or so this post seems to say.
If this is what it takes to push you away, it was never about being an ally in the first place, but about stroking your own ego.
This smug copypasta can be applied to any minority or marginalized group, but itâs still not helpful.
Intersectionalism is important because everyone has a different experience - to expect me to internalize their struggles by reading a book or watching a video essay is absurd. You need to tell your story, we need to give space and listen. Crossing your arms and saying âdo your own researchâ is unproductive - a well meaning ânormieâ who is not terminally online doesnât know where to start, autodidacts almost always have terribly shallow knowledge pools.
You, the person living through your experience, are the subject matter expert - why reject that authority that people have granted you and shown that they are ready and willing to listen to you?
Lmfao, not how it works, labour digger.
Edit just to clarify: Millions of people have already written about their lived experience of oppression (as a disabled person, as a queer person, as a Black person, as a Muslim, as a Jew, as every. single. marginalised group out there), you people don't get to demand a personalised education from every marginalised person you come across, we don't owe you shit especially when you won't even open a search engine and make the most basic effort to learn for yourself.
And like I said, your average normie does not exist in the circles and spaces where those stories are highlighted and shared. Their biggest exposure may very well be a literature teacher years ago at school, broadcast newsâ puddle deep coverage of the topic, or workplace sensitivity pamphlets.
You can scold them to do better, to do your own work, just like you did to the prior commenter who was asking a genuine question from a place of well meaning ignorance, and wanted to do better and requested help with a starting point. And you basically told them to gtfo - great message, screw them for exposing their lock of understanding and trying (humble as it may be) to be better.
I have a bigoted uncle, and despite knowing and being in a circle with a trans woman, he still deadnamed her regularly behind her back and openly confessed astounded bewilderment as to âwhy anyone does thatâ. Until I shared a personal anecdote of my lightbulb moment that took me from (admittedly) privileged indifference and ignorance, to understanding why people transition and how living your life wearing the mask society assigned you whilst grappling of gender dysphoria destroys you slowly from the inside. I had no personal struggle to share beyond that understanding, I could have also smugly told him to âdo your own readingâ - but guess what? He no longer deadnames her, and more and more frequently mentions her positively without the follow-up commentary. THAT is the kind of change that can exist if you try to meet people where they are at.
Nobody says you owe them emotional/mental labor to be seen or deemed worthy of human rights, but snapping at potential allies turns away people who might come onside. I was one of those people, who could have very easily continued to do nothing.
This attitude is actually absurd
I guess I'll stop trying to improve.
I've had people misgender me and try to convince me not to transition and then go claim to be trans allies because they don't call people slurs and will say that killing trans people is bad if asked
That sucks. It's bigotry and then gaslighting, and then on top of it all we're somehow to blame for them being that way because we're not eternally grateful and fawn all over them for reluctantly giving us the barest of bare minimum decency and respect, and therefor leave them no choice (in their eyes of course).
it can be as simple as flying a rainbow flag
My wife and I are queer and have a pride flag on our house. One day a couple of kids came to our door while we were out of town. I was very worried because they were young and alone in the evening and we weren't home. We answered them with the doorbell camera. They said they were queer and just wanted us to know that they're happy to see pride flags in the area to know they're not alone.
Taking actions to be an Ally has risks for folks in some places. Where I am LBGTQA+ support is the norm and doesn't really need to be spoken and when it is I've never heard anyone in over 10 years say a negative thing.
I have online though seen folks who try to speak up in Allyship of someone else get taken down. Subjected to purity tests by folks in an LGBTQA+ supporting community. It felt like the same bi erasure I've experienced and the same transphobia I've seen from parts of the LG community in the 2000s. It's like saying someone isn't gay if they haven't come out. All it does is lessen the crew.
LGBTQA+ shouldnt be treated as a club with a rainbow dress code. It should be the future default standpoint of all of humanity.
ITT people are thinking this post is about them, but it feels like it's more targeted at the "The A is for ally!" types. (Thinking A in LGBTQIA is for ally instead of asexual.)
Why not both? đ€·ââïž
I feel like the two groups are close to a circle in a Venn diagram - privileged people there to make it about themselves (in the form of self aggrandization and claiming non-existent victimhood and marginalisation) rather than about the marginalised people they claim to support (and only do superficially and entirely conditionally).
Hmm, I wonder what I managed to accomplish in the womb
I don't like the "Ally" term. I don't get it. Feminist thinks the equality of man and woman, but the existence of the ally term make a distinction into feminist and allys, that it's just a genre thing. So you are saying there are no equality between male and famele at all.
Literally what are you even talking about
/u/Nexy is confused about the difference between a political view and an identity.
They are correct that there isn't really a difference between being an ally of a political movement like Feminism and being a member of that movement (although I think that movements/organizations with different priorities can be allies with a movement like Feminism, e.g.) a person is either a Feminist or not a Feminist there's nobody that's an ally of Feminism.
But there is a difference between advocating for rights for people with minority Sexual Orientation and Gender Identities (SOGIs), and being a person that is 2SLGBTQI. If we had a word that encapsulated the movement like Feminism does then we wouldn't need to tack on "ally". SOGI-ism? Good luck.
I too am very confused and would like to know
I think they interpret "ally" to mean "male feminist"
yeah, that.
Judging by the rainbow shirt and where it's been posted to (and the discussion on it), this isn't about allie of women but allies LGBT.
Yeah, I figure it out pretty late. In my contry, ally its only used in femimist terms and not lgtbq+ ones, so I wasn't aware.
Depending on who you ask, feminism includes the entire LGBTQIA+ spectrum.
For example, HĂ©lĂšne Cixous points out that there are ways of thinking that are rigid, hierarchical, limiting, and usually patriarchal. This way of thinking creates all sorts of barriers. "Men have to be like this." "Women have to do this and be that." "Transexuals? They have to not be like that."
To break free from rigid and limiting thinking, Cixous proposes to "write from the body". When you pay attention to your own experience, without rigid categories, you can be free. You can define your body in any way. You can act in any way. You can interpret the world in any way.
This, in Cixous' view, is feminism. Feminism is about breaking down barriers and empowering people to be free. A woman can choose to work and buy property without being rejected. A man can choose to be vulnerable with his male friends without being rejected. A woman can choose to accept a woman as a partner and not be rejected. A transexual can choose to transition and not be rejected. A man can choose to not have sex and not be rejected. It is all valid. And it is all feminism. In this view, feminist terms and LGBTQIA+ terms serve exactly the same function: they all help break barriers and empower people to choose the lives that they want to choose.