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I finally get the concept of falling rate of profit!

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/kali-akuno-brian-drolet-doug-norberg-shifting-focus

There was a little aha moment when reading Kali Akuno et al, specifically this part:

Marx demonstrated that as capitalist production develops and advances, competition and the need to secure greater productivity from workers drives the adoption of more productive, labor-saving technology and techniques that replace workers with machines. When labor-saving techniques are introduced, more of each dollar of capital expended in production is invested in machinery and other tools of production, while less is used to hire workers. But the increase in productivity does not cause new value to be created. According to Marx it is workers’ living labor that adds all value to commodities (whether goods or services), and the exchange value of a commodity in the marketplace is determined by the socially necessary (average) labor time required to produce it. Every average hour of labor required to produce a specific commodity yields the same amount of value, independent of any variations in productivity from technological advances.

Since technological innovation decreases the socially necessary (average) labor time required, it decreases the value of the commodity. The same amount of value is spread out among more items, so the increase in productivity causes the values of individual items to decline. As things can be produced more cheaply, and because they can be produced more cheaply, their prices tend to fall. Due to competition, companies must lower their prices when production costs decline. If they don’t, they risk a significant loss of market share or even bankruptcy when competitors cut their prices in response to reduced production costs. As a result, the amount of surplus value (profit) created per dollar of capital invested, the rate of profit, necessarily falls as well. The reality is that productivity increases under capitalism produce a tendency for the general rate of profit to fall.

Since the 1960s and more intensely since the 1990’s, we have witnessed capital’s steady incorporation of automation, computerization, and digitization into the commodities production process. The mass introduction of containerization, computer numeric control (CNC) production, and digitization have displaced millions of workers from the global labor market. And with the introduction of the internet and cell phone technology, etc., there are hardly any people left on Earth who aren’t being directly impacted by this rapid technological change

But capital’s ability to reproduce itself and expand, depends on the accumulation of surplus value, a portion of which must be reinvested in means of production and labor. In more stable periods of capital accumulation, the crisis of realizing profits which is endemic to capitalism is moderated. But the general tendency of decline in the rate of profit, or accumulation of surplus value, forces efforts to bridge the gap between needed and actual rate of profit through extreme measures. Some of the extreme measures capital employs to reproduce itself include the deployment of vicious social control strategies like neoliberalism, which call for austerity and the privatization of social goods, or fascism which calls for political terror. Both of these strategies are designed to discipline labor and make it more compliant, drive down wages, and enable the plunder of natural resources more intensely and efficiently in order to restore profitability.

and even more specifically, the part where he wrote "Since technological innovation decreases the socially necessary (average) labor time required, it decreases the value of the commodity. The same amount of value is spread out among more items, so the increase in productivity causes the values of individual items to decline."

Amazing! It feels good when it a concept clicks.

The part I was missing was the direct and non-negotiable link between labor and value, which I suppose is pretty important concept in Marxism.

Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 19hr

Awesome! The next steps are looking at how capitalism fights this. Capital either seeks new markets, ie new inventions to flood with capital or geographically new markets, or it seeks to establish monopoly. The former allows for greater profits in absolute terms, the latter temporarily raises the rate of profit. The natural consequence is imperialism, where this is combined by having financial capital dominate the global south, super-exploiting labor for super-profits, and via unequal exchange, where technology and tech development is kept in the global north and thus monopoly prices are charged.

This is also why south-south trade is the path to escape underdevelopment, and is why China in particular has been a progressive force for the global south, as they don't withold tech knowledge but instead share it through cooperation and trade. China also doesn't charge the same monopoly prices for tech, which is why global south countries are seeing huge electrification, expansions in EVs, etc.

The west used to have a monopoly on cutting edge tech, they witheld the technology used for creating firearms from African countries for hundreds of years while selectively trading firearms in limited quantities for huge amounts of slaves, as an example. The west forces the global south to rely on them, and forces them into remaining at lower levels of industrial development and refinement. It's also why countries like the Sahel States are working towards cutting unrefined gold exports and upping refined gold exports, ie moving from unfinished raw materials into more finished goods or ancillary materials, and why porkie is terrified of them.

It isn't that goods further along in the commodity production process have more valuable labor time at the higher end, it's that the upper end of the production chain is easier to keep a tech and skill monopoly on. This is what liberals mean by "higher value add" industries, made more naked through Marxist analysis.

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RedWizard [he/him, comrade/them] - 17hr

This is what liberals mean by "higher value add" industries, made more naked through Marxist analysis.

I think a good example of all this is cocoa beans. The largest producers of cocoa beans are in Africa, specifically in the Ivory Coast and Ghana. Traditionally, the west would buy these beans raw from these locations, but then spend the money to ship them to western facilities to process them (higher value add) and keep the profits gained through the refinement process. In the last few years, however, China has made deals with places like the Ivory Coast and Ghana. These deals facilitate the construction of refinment plants inside these counteries, and I believe they even help train laborers to perform the task.

From South China Morning Post:

Tang Chong, the project manager of the Abidjan cocoa processing plant, told reporters who toured the plant last year the project would improve the cocoa processing capacity of Ivory Coast, and help the country train more skilled workers.

"By extending the industrial chain and setting up processing plants, the profits will be increased by 36 per cent," Tang said.

The project, when finished, would employ more than 500 workers, he said.

Before this development, all the technology of refinement was kept in the west; now that China is involved, that technology is being shared at the source. This allows the Ivory Coast and Ghana to increase the profits of their cocoa industry, and also get out of the uneven development trap the west snared them in.

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Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 17hr

Exactly, excellent overview of this process in practice, and a great way to explain why China is different from the west anytime someone tries to portray BRI or other trade deals as "imperialism."

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miz [any, any] - 16hr

cutting unrefined gold exports and upping refined gold exports, ie moving from unfinished raw materials into more finished goods or ancillary materials

more on this, also mentions what RedWizard is saying about cocoa but he has a separate video that focuses on the cocoa trade

How China and the BRICS are starving the West of gold | Inside China Business

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Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 16hr

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out!

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Sphere [he/him, they/them] - 18hr

This is actually going deeper than is necessary. Suppose you have a business that requires spending $100 to buy a building in which workers can labor, such that you can hire 4 workers to produce 1 widget each per day at a pay rate of $1/day, with materials costs of $0.50/widget, and you can sell each widget for $3. Your rate of profit (and the rate part is key, as we'll see in a moment) is 6% per day, since you earn $6 profit on an initial capital investment of $100.

Now, suppose you get a chance to build some robots within that building that will massively reduce labor costs: for another $900, you can set up your building so that it produces 20 widgets per day and only requires one worker. You're now spending only $1 + (20*$0.50)=$11 per day, and raking in $60, for a profit of $49/day, much more than before. But your rate of profit is 4.9% on your $1000 investment, a reduction from the previous 6%. The extra step of prices going down according to the reduction in socially necessary labor time (which may not actually happen under the monopoly conditions toward which capitalism tends) is not necessary for the rate of profit to fall.

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Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 18hr

Excellent addition, comrade.

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RedWizard [he/him, comrade/them] - 18hr

at a pay rate of $1/day

Is that a rate of pay per worker per day, or is that the entire cost of labor for 4 workers?

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Sphere [he/him, they/them] - 18hr

Per worker

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techpeakedin1991 @lemmy.ml - 12hr

The reduction labor time leading to a reduction in prices is necessary for the theory. The reason is that the numbers given in your example are arbitrary, there could just as easily be a machine that will produce 30 widgets/day, making costs $16 and revenue $90, for a profit of $74, and a rate of profit of 7.4% per day. But increased mechanization will always cause the rate of profit to lower, and this is because the price of the widgets will drop according to the labor theory of value. So the LTV is still a necessary part for understanding the falling rate of profit

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Sphere [he/him, they/them] - 9hr

I would argue that the reduction in socially necessary labor time is the driving force behind the way these numbers end up working. Your counterexample is unlikely because the firms that work on mechanization of production are aware of the market forces acting on their clients.

The real hole in my scenario is the fact that you could spend your $900 on nine more buildings and hire another 36 workers, keeping the rate of profit at 6%. But this is where socially necessary labor time does come into play: the fact that automation exists to reduce the socially necessary labor time means that prices can potentially fall, if competitors who do automate join the market, meaning any participant is forced to automate or eventually fold.

But even in close-to-monopolized markets, we still see the TRPF applying; the way capitalists have been finding new ways to escape the TRPF is by cannibalizing older industries (think Uber "disrupting" the taxi market), or by some form of enshittification or other cost reduction at existing firms (for example, my own employer has been both doing layoffs and reducing benefits to improve its margins recently, much to my chagrin). The reason for this is that automation technologies are typically far more expensive than in my example, in which an automation technology that cuts labor costs by fully 75% while simultaneously boosting production fivefold, aka a 20-fold productivity increase, costs a mere 150 days' profit, and only nine times as much as the original investment; this is already unrealistic, so your suggestion that there might be something even better is a bit silly, given that, again, firms doing the automation know how much their efforts are worth. So, the rate of profit still tends to fall even in oligopolized markets that don't face major price pressures from competitors.

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fort_burp @feddit.nl - 13hr

Woah, very cool, and very clear. Thank you o7

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UmmmCheckPlease [he/him, comrade/them] - 17hr

Nice!

What really made it click for me (and surprisingly few others in the profession) is that as a civil engineer, today’s technology allows me to do the work in a day that would take a team a week a few decades ago (e.g. drafting, gis, digitized plan sets, etc). But wages have overall been relatively driven down- especially in civil engineering - where tasks are more akin to “labor” tasks (analyzing, drafting and preparing a plan set using hardware and software owned by a company), vs “professional/managerial” (project management, supervisory). But the majority of engineers still view themselves as “professional/managerial” and thus are resistant to collective action.

::: spoiler Boring engineering profit analysis When one prepares a “bid estimate” for the number of hours they’ll work, it gets multiplied by an hourly rate and a “markup”. If an engineer is curious enough (and few are, unfortunately) they can back calculate what they “bill” (ie what the company gets paid) vs what’s received by them in compensation (wage and benefits). And then can compare that to the “billable rate” of, for instance their supervisor, and see that those who work the most hours and actually “produce” work are compensated the least (eg drafters/techs, early careerists, surveyors). But yet the primary thing that the managerial and overall corporate structure provides are access to the tools (drafting software, gis, survey equipment), professional insurance/counsel, and health insurance that are otherwise cost prohibitive to the engineer to acquire if they’d perform their own work. However the managerial/corporate structure do not actually produce any of the “products” that the company actually sells.

And so if, due to tech advancements, a staff member performs the work of 5 staff (ie produces 5x the deliverables or at 5x the pace), then it would follow that the company would see >5x the profit because of that efficiency. However, profits are driven down by “low bid” systems and generally underfunded infrastructure, and so engineers are tasked with doing more and more with the same tools.

So the increase in efficiency of the tools, while maintaining a “presentable” profit margin for the company, ultimately presents minimal benefit to the laborer who does not themselves own the tools. And when the market tightens (as it has been and increasingly so since Covid, and will increase further due to climate change combined with aged infrastructure) these profits continue to fall for the companies and in order to maintain a “presentable” profit margin management tasks labor to produce more still and use “magic silver efficiency bullets” like “AI” to try and pick up the slack.

But ultimately none of these fix the systemic issue of a lack of public funding. The lack of funding stems from a reduced tax income from an overdrawn tax base (since most taxpayers are also on the receiving end of capitalism) not wanting to raise taxes to support infrastructure which does not benefit them directly, and capital does not want to spend any of its profit on maintenance and replacement. :::

And so bottom line - profit is extracted from the labor of workers and siphoned to owners - owners do not reinvest this profit into the society and create nothing of value themselves - and so as capital consumes itself and runs out of ways to exploit the workers the profit inevitably falls.

And as that falls far enough - it becomes socialism v barbarism - either abolishing capitalism or oppressing workers to a precarious enough position where they can be exploited and further profit can be squeezed from them (eg prison, deportation/“citizenship”, un-abortable pregnancy, etc).

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fort_burp @feddit.nl - 13hr

Thanks for this comment, I find it fascinating to read about applications of practices / concepts in fields I'm not familiar with.

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UmmmCheckPlease [he/him, comrade/them] - 10hr

You bet! Not sure it’s done me much professional good to beat the drum on this particular issue - but I fear how public infrastructure proceeds to be commodified like healthcare (eg directly tied to the whims of capital) and the affect that has on marginalized communities. Idk.

The world needs lots of reform and imo land/infrastructure reform will further grow to be a battleground in years to come as the climate gets less amenable to existing infrastructure and land use practices

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Asafum @feddit.nl - 17hr

Due to competition, companies must lower their prices when production costs decline. If they don’t, they risk a significant loss of market share or even bankruptcy when competitors cut their prices in response to reduced production costs. As a result, the amount of surplus value (profit) created per dollar of capital invested, the rate of profit, necessarily falls as well. The reality is that productivity increases under capitalism produce a tendency for the general rate of profit to fall.

This part isn't necessarily a given though, what seems to happen more often now is that one company buys the other so they don't have to lower their prices. :/

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Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 17hr

The tendency is proven, but it is frustrated by capitalists in ways that undermine the foundations of capitalism. Centralization of capital via joining companies together is one of the ways capital fights the tendency, but this also results in the death of competition and a much larger ratio of workers to capitalists, making disparity more contradictory and increasing the chances of success for revolution.

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bobs_guns @lemmygrad.ml - 17hr

Also...not every worker stays employed after the merger. There is a general tendency to pay workers less to try to increase profits in your own little corner of the economy, whether that's by laying people off or paying them as little as possible. But when everyone does that, in aggregate, across the whole economy, and also takes advantage of inelasticity of demand to jack up prices of things that people need to survive, the people get put in an increasingly precarious and proletarianized position, even if in the past some could have hacked it as a petit bourgeois. This sort of behavior can only increase profits so much and it results in crises for the working class while placing a hard limit on the amount of money people can spend because they always spend all of it.

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Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 17hr

Exactly, and then circulation of capital grinds to a halt and capital is no longer being valorized, resulting in entire banks collapsing overnight.

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bobs_guns @lemmygrad.ml - 16hr

I'm being told on my radio communicator that this is a good thing, though, because those banks were not maximally efficient according to the whims of the free market.

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Beaver [he/him] - 14hr

Going into the readings of Capital last year, one of my major misconceptions about Marx's work was that the falling rate of profit was one of the "disproven" predictions... when in fact, it's a fact of life that the capitalists spend a supermajority of their effort trying to overcome.

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Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 14hr

To be fair, it's extremely easy to miss that it's more of a downward pressure and not an ironclad and steady drop. It's as you said, a great force that capitalists must work against to maintain profits.

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Self_Sealing_Stem_Bolt [he/him, they/them] - 13hr

Do not listen to what the capitalist says but pay attention to what they do. They'll say the LTV is incorrect but they have to act like it is because IT IS. Its like the saying, the purpose of a system is what it does.

And libs are also convinced that the falling rate of profit cant be true because it backs up the LTV and thats not ok for lib ideology. But the capitalists act as tho its true because reality doesn't care about your ideology. They say one thing and do another.

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fort_burp @feddit.nl - 13hr

This also happens in the financial realm, where concentration of stock ownership gets to such a high level (e.g. BlackRock) that selling the stock would demolish the price thereby negating it's own value.

Capital is a blind, hungry demon.

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Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 13hr

Yep, and it's important to keep that tied to how it exists contextually with the rest of the economy.

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stink @lemmygrad.ml - 17hr

Yesh. Capitalists love saying "communism works in theory ☝️🤓" when the past 50 years has shown capitalism only works in theory. Amazon, Google, Facebook, and Microsoft all have monopolies in their markets. They consistently buy out any startup that they deem has any chance of competing against them. These idiots have been so brainwashed over the years that they forgot even the most libertarian losers of the past still made (albeit, false) justifications that the "free-market" would cause cheaper prices for consumers. Now we have shills dropping that facade entirely, defending these billionaires and their companies commit anti-competitive and anti-consumer actions while they themselves live in squalor.

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fort_burp @feddit.nl - 14hr

Oh yea, definitely. That's why all the big boys want monopoly power and wear diapers that say "Competition is For Losers" on the back.

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