Is it bad takes, controversial posts, or something else?
FunkyStuff [he/him] - 4day
Frustrated beyond words that so many years since March 2022, liberals still believe the reason communists are in favor of the SMO is because communists think Russia is still socialist. If 3 years isn't enough time for them to understand (not necessarily agree with, but understand) an argument as simple as "NATO holds back world socialism; Russia's war in Ukraine is fundamentally about pushing back NATO; therefore it is good for those who want to see socialism bloom if Russia succeeds in exhausting a NATO effort to expand into Ukraine." It makes me seriously question that any significant number of people are ready to seriously dig into criticism of capitalism, participate in the development of counter-counterinsurgency tactics, and all the tasks that are necessary for a revolutionary movement.
The upshot is that, much like liberals and reactionaries don't believe their own propaganda but repeat it anyway as a means of positive moral and mental affirmation about their place in the world, they also don't necessarily fail to understand the argument, but understand it perfectly well and just refuse to interface with it because of cognitive dissonance. This is also true of anti-masking, it's not that they don't understand the necessity of still taking precautions against COVID, it's that doing so would cause them to take on a counterhegemonic position that breaks from the reality they see around them and they'll be socially punished for breaking uniform.
That last bit is strategically relevant because it means it's possible to beat these people's head out of the sand if the hegemony of the liberal and reactionary ideas is itself challenged (not just the specific ideas themselves). This is difficult because it requires severing people from their currently established consensus reality, but I think we all know the world is breaking that down without our help at the moment anyway.
48
Horse {they/them} - 4day
liberals still believe the reason communists are in favor of the SMO is because communists think Russia is still socialist
tbh i think they repeat it because it's easy to argue against, i doubt many of them actually believe it
25
Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 4day
I think they do believe it. False Witnesses is a great essay going over why people license themselves to believe clear falsehoods.
30
FunkyStuff [he/him] - 4day
I was basing my comment on that and Masses Elites and Rebels, but my takeaway from those essays is that they don't believe the things they're saying and the targets of the propaganda aren't supposed to believe it in a meaningful sense either, only to acquire it as a kind of currency that can be used to justify their social position (e.g. asked why you're homeschooling your kids? Because Oprah is a devil worshipper!)
But it is the case. Let’s go through that list again. The following are all true of the people spreading the Procter & Gamble rumor:
They didn’t really believe it themselves.
They were passing it along with the intent of misinforming others. Deliberately.
They did not respect, or care about, the actual facts of the matter, except to the extent that they viewed such facts with hostility.
The post-truth element of this dynamic can't be understated. It's fundamental to how propaganda works: the accuracy of the claims is not an object to the emitter of the propaganda nor its target. The value of the propaganda comes purely from its capacity to make the world make sense from the POV of someone who has already bought into living their lives a certain way. But the difficult thing is that this does imply that after a certain point, we no longer have beliefs at all, just coping mechanisms detached from material reality and any kind of ground truth.
28
Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 4day
Good point, but I don't think it's black and white. What I think often happens is that people choose to not care about the truth of what they share. Point 3 doesn't mean they don't believe it, it means whether or not its true doesn't matter as much as its utility. They are willingly choosing not to engage critically, deliberately, but also do end up reinforcing their own beliefs this way.
If you like this kind of thinking, Roderic Day also wrote (and Nia Frome also edited) Really Existing Fascism which is excellent too but focused on the way the conception of liberalism, communism, and fascism as three distinct ideologies (though usually with some symmetry between communism and fascism in the eyes of liberals because of their shared 'totalitarianism') came to be, how that model should be improved to be more accurate to 20th century history, and a pretty cool philosophical discussion that's a bit of a summary or spin on Losurdo's Nietzsche book.
15
UmmmCheckPlease [he/him, comrade/them] - 4day
Nice I’ll check that out - I haven’t read much meta analysis of ideologies - that’ll be a good read. Thanks!
10
Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 4day
I see it all the time on my Lemmy.ml account, it's useful to know when engaging with reactionaries.
15
UmmmCheckPlease [he/him, comrade/them] - 4day
Yeah I work with the public a lot in the environmental field - and understanding the origin of a lot of things people parrot is a skill to stay sharp on - especially trying to deprogram people from “crabs in a pot” mentality
13
Cowbee [he/him, they/them] - 4day
Yep, absolutely!
10
Bob_Odenkirk [none/use name] - 4day
I actually support the SMO because I believe that one Simpsons clip is real
21
PKMKII [none/use name] - 4day
It doesn’t even need to be crouched in terms of socialism, just “the American empire is bad for the world writ large, NATO is a facet of that empire, ergo NATO taking an L with regards to Ukraine is a lesser of two evils situation as while Putin is not good either, Russia is not destabilizing for the world the way America is.”
I think that’s where the counterhegemonic position part comes in; libs will acknowledge that America is not perfect (unlike conservatives), but even entertaining the idea that America is not the least-bad force is beyond the pale.
20
FunkyStuff [he/him] - 4day
I was reflecting on it and I think for most American libs, reckoning with the principled anti-imperialist positions that they encounter on here is probably just asking a lot, psychologically speaking. It's a real "are we the baddies?" moment where you have to really entertain the possibility that all that surrounds you is legitimately evil and has been that way for a long time. It's much easier to think that Russia is behind the fascism they see around them than to face the reality that that's the essence of America itself.
21
RedSturgeon [she/her] - 3day
A friend of mine was visiting me in 2023, libs were texting him worried for his safety, because we're bordering Russia.
I've had libs text me about how scary it must be to be in such dangerous location. Oh my goodness so scary to share a border with Russia. This is how terrified they are. Interestingly none of them ever cared to help me in any way, despite their loud support for trans ppl and supposed desire for "action". They could easily help me change my gender marker for example, so that maybe I can avoid getting into trouble and just make it easier to actually function etc. They only send me thoughts and prayers.
No wonder they believe socialism doesn't work, when they're all words 0 actions and it must be like a self-reinforcing loop. Any time they see someone doing a selfless action they project themselves and they have to find any selfish reason for said action.
18
FunkyStuff [he/him] - 3day
Careful what you wish for though, tell enough liberals that you're near the Russian border and eventually you'll meet a fed who wants you to join ISIS-K or something.
8
RedSturgeon [she/her] - 3day
I think they would spend more effort into keeping me away from the groups, they already have plenty of members and don't need infiltrators, that would discourage adventurism and encourage the creation of more potato farms.
4
Dort_Owl [they/them, any] - 4day
I don't get why the people on World didn't just stay on Reddit? I mean, they crealy just want Lemmy to be Reddit 2, and their ideals already line up with Reddit sooooo?
43
Horse {they/them} - 4day
the people running world wanted reddit but they're in charge
some of the users migrating would have wanted to get in on the ground floor of reddit2
some of them wanted reddit but with different people in charge
some of them wanted reddit but foss
40
Chana [none/use name] - 4day
A lot of them just wanted apps and Reddit's API changes threatened their precious apps
33
LadyCajAsca [she/her, comrade/them] - 4day
some of them wanted reddit but foss
this was kinda me before I got radicalized, hey, it turns out FOSS to Communist pipeline is real if you're a copyleft enjoyer too
31
MarxMadness [comrade/them] - 4day
When forum posting is not liberating, the dream of the poster is to become a mod
22
Ram_The_Manparts [he/him] - 4day
They've actually managed to make .world worse than reddit, so I suppose they have that going for them lmao
31
chgxvjh [he/him, comrade/them] - 3day
Because Reddit becomes less useable every update.
9
awrf [pup/pup's] - 4day
You are supporting the death of innocent people instead of alterior methods
Time to just wipe Russia off the map already, split the country up and give the land to the other surrounding nations.
Ah yes, your barbaric death of innocent people vs our glorious wiping a country off the map. I'm genuinely curious how often liberals think of shit like bombing the Three Gorges Dam and fantasizing about "wiping Russia off the map". It has to be once a day at least, right?!
37
gramxi [they/them] - 3day
lol I was looking at that one too
WE NEED TO WIPE RUSSIA OFF THE MAP. I AM ADOLF HITLER.
idk why ml banned me. I just don't see it. It's a mystery!
22
huf [he/him] - 4day
yeah, they think about the roman empire bombing the three gorges dam at least twice a day.
it's like communists remembering stalin during sex.
22
awrf [pup/pup's] - 4day
Of course, of course!
25
Moidialectica [he/him, comrade/them] - 4day
I'm gonna make a gif where it fades in the word 'Stalin'. It's gonna be so good.
13
Johnny_Arson [they/them] - 4day
Because sometimes you get what you deserve. They are completely out to lunch mentally.
oh hey look, ableism right out the gates
31
10TH_OF_SEPTEMBER_CALL [any, any] - 4day
.world mods recieve a .world email address. And that inbox recieves israeli propaganda.
I saw an ex-mod saying something about this
30
roux [they/them, xe/xem] - 4day
The first comment immediately jumps to ableism. As was expected.
27
Le_Wokisme [they/them, undecided] - 4day
because they're libs
17
Chana [none/use name] - 3day
lemmy.ml is a free website with public posts and free accounts. This person could just go there and see what's up
12
FunkyStuff [he/him] - 3day
they did, check what instance they're from. They're asking because they want other people's opinions.
LemmySlopSkimmer in slop
"Why do .ml users get a bad rep?"
https://lemmy.world/post/39886342Frustrated beyond words that so many years since March 2022, liberals still believe the reason communists are in favor of the SMO is because communists think Russia is still socialist. If 3 years isn't enough time for them to understand (not necessarily agree with, but understand) an argument as simple as "NATO holds back world socialism; Russia's war in Ukraine is fundamentally about pushing back NATO; therefore it is good for those who want to see socialism bloom if Russia succeeds in exhausting a NATO effort to expand into Ukraine." It makes me seriously question that any significant number of people are ready to seriously dig into criticism of capitalism, participate in the development of counter-counterinsurgency tactics, and all the tasks that are necessary for a revolutionary movement.
The upshot is that, much like liberals and reactionaries don't believe their own propaganda but repeat it anyway as a means of positive moral and mental affirmation about their place in the world, they also don't necessarily fail to understand the argument, but understand it perfectly well and just refuse to interface with it because of cognitive dissonance. This is also true of anti-masking, it's not that they don't understand the necessity of still taking precautions against COVID, it's that doing so would cause them to take on a counterhegemonic position that breaks from the reality they see around them and they'll be socially punished for breaking uniform.
That last bit is strategically relevant because it means it's possible to beat these people's head out of the sand if the hegemony of the liberal and reactionary ideas is itself challenged (not just the specific ideas themselves). This is difficult because it requires severing people from their currently established consensus reality, but I think we all know the world is breaking that down without our help at the moment anyway.
tbh i think they repeat it because it's easy to argue against, i doubt many of them actually believe it
I think they do believe it. False Witnesses is a great essay going over why people license themselves to believe clear falsehoods.
I was basing my comment on that and Masses Elites and Rebels, but my takeaway from those essays is that they don't believe the things they're saying and the targets of the propaganda aren't supposed to believe it in a meaningful sense either, only to acquire it as a kind of currency that can be used to justify their social position (e.g. asked why you're homeschooling your kids? Because Oprah is a devil worshipper!)
The post-truth element of this dynamic can't be understated. It's fundamental to how propaganda works: the accuracy of the claims is not an object to the emitter of the propaganda nor its target. The value of the propaganda comes purely from its capacity to make the world make sense from the POV of someone who has already bought into living their lives a certain way. But the difficult thing is that this does imply that after a certain point, we no longer have beliefs at all, just coping mechanisms detached from material reality and any kind of ground truth.
Good point, but I don't think it's black and white. What I think often happens is that people choose to not care about the truth of what they share. Point 3 doesn't mean they don't believe it, it means whether or not its true doesn't matter as much as its utility. They are willingly choosing not to engage critically, deliberately, but also do end up reinforcing their own beliefs this way.
@Cowbee@hexbear.net , @FunkyStuff@hexbear.net ty - good essays from both - I love learning about these rhetorical tricks - especially around bad faith arguments
If you like this kind of thinking, Roderic Day also wrote (and Nia Frome also edited) Really Existing Fascism which is excellent too but focused on the way the conception of liberalism, communism, and fascism as three distinct ideologies (though usually with some symmetry between communism and fascism in the eyes of liberals because of their shared 'totalitarianism') came to be, how that model should be improved to be more accurate to 20th century history, and a pretty cool philosophical discussion that's a bit of a summary or spin on Losurdo's Nietzsche book.
Nice I’ll check that out - I haven’t read much meta analysis of ideologies - that’ll be a good read. Thanks!
I see it all the time on my Lemmy.ml account, it's useful to know when engaging with reactionaries.
Yeah I work with the public a lot in the environmental field - and understanding the origin of a lot of things people parrot is a skill to stay sharp on - especially trying to deprogram people from “crabs in a pot” mentality
Yep, absolutely!
I actually support the SMO because I believe that one Simpsons clip is real
It doesn’t even need to be crouched in terms of socialism, just “the American empire is bad for the world writ large, NATO is a facet of that empire, ergo NATO taking an L with regards to Ukraine is a lesser of two evils situation as while Putin is not good either, Russia is not destabilizing for the world the way America is.”
I think that’s where the counterhegemonic position part comes in; libs will acknowledge that America is not perfect (unlike conservatives), but even entertaining the idea that America is not the least-bad force is beyond the pale.
I was reflecting on it and I think for most American libs, reckoning with the principled anti-imperialist positions that they encounter on here is probably just asking a lot, psychologically speaking. It's a real "are we the baddies?" moment where you have to really entertain the possibility that all that surrounds you is legitimately evil and has been that way for a long time. It's much easier to think that Russia is behind the fascism they see around them than to face the reality that that's the essence of America itself.
A friend of mine was visiting me in 2023, libs were texting him worried for his safety, because we're bordering Russia.
I've had libs text me about how scary it must be to be in such dangerous location. Oh my goodness so scary to share a border with Russia. This is how terrified they are. Interestingly none of them ever cared to help me in any way, despite their loud support for trans ppl and supposed desire for "action". They could easily help me change my gender marker for example, so that maybe I can avoid getting into trouble and just make it easier to actually function etc. They only send me thoughts and prayers.
No wonder they believe socialism doesn't work, when they're all words 0 actions and it must be like a self-reinforcing loop. Any time they see someone doing a selfless action they project themselves and they have to find any selfish reason for said action.
Careful what you wish for though, tell enough liberals that you're near the Russian border and eventually you'll meet a fed who wants you to join ISIS-K or something.
I think they would spend more effort into keeping me away from the groups, they already have plenty of members and don't need infiltrators, that would discourage adventurism and encourage the creation of more potato farms.
I don't get why the people on World didn't just stay on Reddit? I mean, they crealy just want Lemmy to be Reddit 2, and their ideals already line up with Reddit sooooo?
the people running world wanted reddit but they're in charge
some of the users migrating would have wanted to get in on the ground floor of reddit2
some of them wanted reddit but with different people in charge
some of them wanted reddit but foss
A lot of them just wanted apps and Reddit's API changes threatened their precious apps
this was kinda me before I got radicalized, hey, it turns out FOSS to Communist pipeline is real if you're a copyleft enjoyer too
When forum posting is not liberating, the dream of the poster is to become a mod
They've actually managed to make .world worse than reddit, so I suppose they have that going for them lmao
Because Reddit becomes less useable every update.
Ah yes, your barbaric death of innocent people vs our glorious wiping a country off the map. I'm genuinely curious how often liberals think of shit like bombing the Three Gorges Dam and fantasizing about "wiping Russia off the map". It has to be once a day at least, right?!
lol I was looking at that one too
yeah, they think about the roman empire bombing the three gorges dam at least twice a day.
it's like communists remembering stalin during sex.
Of course, of course!
I'm gonna make a gif where it fades in the word 'Stalin'. It's gonna be so good.
oh hey look, ableism right out the gates
.world mods recieve a .world email address. And that inbox recieves israeli propaganda.
I saw an ex-mod saying something about this
The first comment immediately jumps to ableism. As was expected.
because they're libs
lemmy.ml is a free website with public posts and free accounts. This person could just go there and see what's up
they did, check what instance they're from. They're asking because they want other people's opinions.