Really struggling with my gender identity [cw: gender dysphoria/impostor syndrome, maybe internalized transphobia?]
I just really don't know how to feel or what to do or how to figure this out for myself so if anyone else has been in my shoes I'd really love some advice
[For context I'm in my 30's]
Sooooo growing up I knew that trans people existed, and I knew about androgyny which I was very fond of, but it wasn't up until my mid 20's that I had learned about genderfluidity or nonbinary identities. Once I heard it described, it just clicked with me and immediately I felt that that is what I was, nonbinary. This was around the time that gay marriage became legal in California, so really these terms were not widely used at all outside of queer communities. As a very young child most of my interests aligned with my gender assigned at birth, but even into 2nd and 3rd grade it was very obvious that I was more interested in hobbies and things typical of the opposite gender, and this has remained static. The things I liked, the ways I dressed for the most part, my choice in friends, my sexuality, the way I talk and kinda move around the world was more reflective, in my mind, of the "opposite gender". There were characteristics, however, that up until learning that I could be a third, secret gender (lol), were in alignment with my AGAB, so I never identified as anything but.
Now I have identified as nonbinary/agender/transmasc nonbinary for close to 15 years, but over the past few years I've been feeling like I am really not actually anything other than cisgender. Being misgendered by others still REALLY bothers me...But due to my experiences in the world and how I've always been perceived, I really do resonate with the experiences of my AGAB, especially when it comes to experiences of gender based violence. I feel like in my brain I slip and call myself my AGAB more now than I used to. I'm in relationships with people where it looks like a straight relationship. I don't really belong to any queer community, so I'm used to people constantly misgendering me, and it just feels like I'm always perceived as my AGAB even when gendered correctly.
I don't take hormones, I've never had any type of gender affirming surgeries, and I generally don't want to change my body. I have body dysmorphia, but that I think is more due to societal expectations of what my body is supposed to look like/chronic verbal abuse focused on my body. I have thought about hormones, I have wondered or wanted my body to align with my gender more but never to the point of feeling that I need to change it. But at this point, I feel like I should resign myself to just being cis. ADMIT to being cis....and I just feel like a fraud. I still bristle against the idea, but I just feel like I'm faking it, and have been faking it because no one else sees me as what I want to be seen as....But that's the thing, do I just WANT to be seen as someone else, or NEED to be? What's the difference? I feel like I would NEED to take hormones, or want/need surgery to really ACTUALLY be who I feel I am...Especially since I've had more and more thoughts that feel cis??? Is the only way I can describe it. I feel like my identity is not much more than a choice of pronoun, and I just feel like I'm cosplaying or something....So I don't really know what the fuck I am or how to figure it out. It's just one more thing to perseverate about and I wish I could just not think about it. But I don't know how to get there.
AntifaSuperWombat [she/her] - 1.3yr
Once I heard it described, it just clicked with me and immediately I felt that that is what I was, nonbinary.
Being misgendered by others still REALLY bothers me...
Just typical things cis people say...
But I think what’s holding you back is the fact that we live in an extremely cis-normative society, where enbies have their existence constantly denied from all sides, especially AFAB enbies. So it doesn’t surprise me at all that your self-perception is suffering from going through that every day.
Maybe a little thought experiment could help you a bit: Imagine you’re the last person on earth. No society to judge you, no peer pressure, no gender roles. Just you. Do you see yourself as cis now or still as an enby?
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
lol I was once told that cisgender people don't even really think about these things, or worry about it, which should be evidence enough to know what my truth is. Still difficult to trust myself though. Thanks for validating what I'm going through. I think part of what I do as well is while it can be agonizing, I do the thing where, I know that I have much more privilege being perceived as cis than other trans siblings, so it's like a black or white thing where I guess I dismiss any and all struggles with it because of that privilege, so I must be cis, where I should know better.
In your thought experiment, I guess I would still see myself as enby. I think ultimately if there were no constraints at all physically, mentally or socially, since highschool I've thought being a (trans) dude who will wear skirts and tights sometimes but wrenches on bikes and builds shit and rolls around in the dirt would be the ultimate gender expression lol.
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AntifaSuperWombat [she/her] - 1.3yr
I guess I would still see myself as enby.
There you go. That’s the answer.
And no, I don’t think it’s a privilege to get misgendered and having your identity overlooked. I certainly don’t envy you for that.
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
Thats a really good point, i guess its just a different type of struggle. Y'all are really giving me a lot to think about I'm glad I made this post thank you so much
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AntifaSuperWombat [she/her] - 1.3yr
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dogerwaul [he/him, they/them] - 1.3yr
hey other 30-something non-binary person~ you sound a lot like me tbh. i also have a unique and personal connection to my AGAB yet it makes my skin crawl to be seen as the adult human version of said gender (lol). i'm not a man, i'm not a woman, but i have lived stealthily as one the majority of my life. i'm not on hormones either but have thought about it.
look, there isn't a specific way or lifestyle we need to fit in order to be nonbinary. we don't need to have a miserable self-loathing experience to identify as trans. you are allowed to have incongruent gender while enjoying the assigned parts of yourself. you don't owe yourself pain.
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
I'm glad that there are some people that can share in some of the same experiences with this. Truly I think that some of the things folks have shared with me here are things that I need to write down and process. "You don't owe yourself pain" is really something that I need to use as a positive affirmation of sorts, because I think a lot of these feelings apply to many different parts of myself, but didnt really consider that til now. Thank you
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PKMKII [none/use name] - 1.3yr
I feel like I should resign myself to just being cis. ADMIT to being cis....and I just feel like a fraud.
Regardless of what you end up identifying as, you’re not a fraud. Figuring out who you are is a process, everyone takes a different amount of time to do that process but it doesn’t make them fraudulent if they identify as something different then they did previously, or return to a prior identity.
In general, I’m getting the vibe that you’re putting too much stock in others’ perception of you. Yes, it sucks when people misgender you, but it doesn’t give them power over what your identity is. You need to satisfy yourself, not others. Like, when I was younger I had a, non-gender conforming hairstyle in a small ass town and got misgendered by the occasional yokel that latched on to the most superficial aspect of gender presentation, despite everything else about me being very cisgendered in all other aspects. But it never made me go, oh shit maybe I’m trans because some dumbass misgendered me.
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
thanks for responding
I think I need to remember what you're saying over people having power over me. I think my sense of security in my identity in general is on very shaky ground, and that's probably where a lot of this anxiety is coming from, along with a sprinkle of learned helplessness lol. My insecurities are something I'm hoping to work on in therapy, but it's good to just get feedback from other queer comrades on this since I have none that I feel close enough to irl to kinda bounce this off of and get a lil bit of validation.
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Are_Euclidding_Me [e/em/eir] - 1.3yr
Hey, I'm also transmasc nonbinary, but I'm, in some ways, luckier than you because testosterone, top surgery, and a hysterectomy were clearly right for me. As a result, it's impossible for me to have the anxieties that you do about your gender; I'm clearly trans, look, I'm on hormones, how could I be anything else?
But of course, being on hormones (and having gender-affirming surgeries) doesn't make anyone more or less trans than anyone else. It's easy for me to be like "of course I'm trans" and use the physical stuff as evidence, but trans people who don't make any physical changes to their bodies are also trans, no less trans than I am. There's simply less physical evidence of their transness, that's all.
You're not cis just because you're cis-passing. You're not cis just because people around you treat you as though you are. You're not cis just because you don't feel the need to change your body with hormones and surgery. (Although it does sound to me like you might be interested in experimenting with hormones? I'm a bit of a hormone evangelist, because I actually was extremely unsure about whether I should take them and only after I started T did I realize how very, very good for me it is. So I'd urge you to give it a go if you have any curiosity. You can always quit before the physical changes get obvious.)
One last question: what is a "cis" thought, for you? I recently have been having thoughts like "well, I'm going to have to soon start pretending to be either a woman or a man, pretty clearly the political trend is towards complete erasure of nonbinary identities, and I'm going to pretend to be a woman. Even with my facial hair and voice that always gets me called "sir" on the phone. Conservatives don't like women who look like me? Tough. This situation is on them." And that, feels, to me, almost like a "cis" thought. Like, yeah, I guess I'm a woman then, if I have to shove myself into one box or the other. I wonder if your "cis thoughts" are similar, at least in the sense that society is screaming at you that you need to shove yourself into one of the two binary gender boxes and you're choosing to be shoved into the "woman" box because it's a bit more comfortable for you than the "man" box.
I sincerely hope I haven't said anything here that can be taken as offensive. I worry focusing so much on how much I've changed my body will come off as gauche or worse, will make you feel like maybe you're not really trans, or like I think you're not really trans. My intention is the opposite of that, I think your post gives off massive trans vibes and I mean it when I say trans people who don't make physical changes to their bodies are just as trans as those who do. Hormones and surgery are great for those who want them, but they in no way determine transness.
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
Hey first off you said nothing offensive at all! I totally get where your coming from and it makes sense to me. I also relate to people through sharing anecdotes and similar experiences so I appreciate everything you've had to say.
Second, do you mind if I DM you to talk about hormone stuff? I'd really like to ask questions if youre open to it!
Third, I think what I mean by cis thoughts is just kinda relating a lot to experiences of women I guess? Its kind of hard to explain. Idk, I think ive still got a lot of ingrained conceptions of what it is to be a man, woman, or other gender that I need to work out still and I think that can be difficult for me not having any queer community irl
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Are_Euclidding_Me [e/em/eir] - 1.3yr
Definitely feel free to DM me! I'm always happy to talk about my experience on testosterone!
It's not too surprising that you'd relate a lot to women's experiences, really. I do, for sure, I lived as a woman for quite a while after all. Interestingly, for me, I tend to feel most "like a woman" (whatever the fuck that means) when someone is spouting some misogynistic bullshit. The positive parts of womanhood don't speak to me at all, but I get personally outraged when someone is making generalized stupid statements about women, as though they're attacking me personally.
Gender feelings are tough, in my experience! They're so big, but also so murky and confusing, and sometimes seemingly downright contradictory, it's rough. Worth thinking about though!
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
Damn, yeah I think that's exactly it for me. When it comes to violence against women and other experiences unique to the gender, that is definitely when I feel I identify with it the most. Which I think makes sense, especially since all of this shit probably happens because I'm perceived as a woman, so people interact with and harm me like one. And now that I think about it, that might be something that plays into all of these anxieties, too. I just want to be treated like one of the guys and always have. If I did try to change my outward presentation, that might actually happen, so that probably contributes to feeling like a "fraud". Like oh, if I REALLY wanted to be treated like one of the guys, I'd do A B and/or C. I think I've really been able to look at this from a lot of different perspectives that I never had before by talking to you and everyone else, it's a good thing but also so wild that one lil post where I mostly just decide to scream into the void has yielded more realizations about this than I've ever had over the course of my life lol
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lilypad [she/her, it/its] - 1.3yr
::: spoiler flippant
Gender is fake, so dont worry about faking it. Your gender is just as socially constructed as the next persons.
:::
::: spoiler serious
You talk about admitting to being cis, seemingly based on your lack of desire for hormones or to change your body. But gender isnt physical traits! Gender is a class division based on our relationship to reproductive and perpetuative labour. If youre relationship with that labor doesnt align with your AGAB or if you dont want it to then that is enough. Changing ones body is not the root of transness.
But that's the thing, do I just WANT to be seen as someone else, or NEED to be? What's the difference?
Is the need/want differentiation important? Who cares if you need vs want this. Most trans people are technically capable of existing as our AGAB, its just that our quality of life is terrible to the point some of us would rather kill ourselves. But self determination shouldnt be means tested, you shouldnt need to be suicidal to get an "approved trans" sticker. You seem hung up on the differentiation between wanting and needing, when i think it would be much more joyous to say "it doesnt matter if i want or need, this is something i desire so i will persue it".
Sometimes letting go of the justifications for why we are how we are is really really hard (it certainly is for me) but my life has gotten better as ive stopped trying to justify my transness, and just accepted that this is what I want, and i dont have to justify that to anyone, not even myself.
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
hey sorry i didnt respond to you I meant to but I always forget. I know you probably were not feeling like you needed one but here it is lol. I like your flippant answer, it is so real to be honest and I should remember that. I feel like I can apply a lot of what you say to anyone else but myself. But I am recognizing that is something I really need to work on; acceptance and also believing that I'm deserving of well, anything. Like this whole post has really made me connect the dots with a lot of my mental problems as of late and I think working on those things will probably help me resolve this issue naturally. I appreciate your outlook so much and that you chose to share it with me
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lilypad [she/her, it/its] - 1.3yr
Im really glad I was able to be helpful it took me a very long time and lots of introspection and selfcrit to reach where i am and im really glad someone else can also get use out of all that pain and confusion i went - and sometimes still do go - through.
I feel you so hard on being able to apply things to other people but not to yourself, i do the same thing. Self love cant save us from everything, but it can save us from ourselves
If you want to talk and chew this fat at all, im around and available to talk.
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crosswind [she/her, they/them] - 1.3yr
When I was figuring out my gender, I was also really worried about 'faking it' or 'pretending' and being a fraud. The way I envisioned it at the time, I didn't think I was going to change myself or my appearance enough, and I didn't think that the discomfort I had with my assigned gender was strong enough to clear the threshold of counting as trans. For a while that kept me from pursuing the idea, or accepting myself, and I continued pushing the feelings down.
That changed when, for a moment, my perspective shifted and the idea of "cosplaying as cis" popped into my head. I started realizing how much the things I had been openly saying to myself while holding back from accepting my gender fit with that idea.
"As long as I don't tell anyone how much I think about my gender, and I pretend it doesn't bother me when people misgender me, and I say I don't have any dysphoria at all, and I choose my appearance to match what people expect from me, and I hide how much seeing trans people means to me personally... then I can probably keep people convinced I'm cis."
I realized that as worried as I was about being 'authentically trans', I clearly was not 'authentically cis'. If I applied the kind of judgement I worried about receiving for claiming to be trans, then I would absolutely be a fraud if I claimed to be cis.
After that I dropped the idea of identifying as cis, and was much more comfortable exploring what I did or didn't want to identify with beyond that. I still get nervous that other people might judge me for 'not being trans enough', but not in a way that makes me question what I know about myself.
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
Damn, that logic really makes sense to me. Ive never really tried to fit the mold of my AGAB, so I don't really know how I'd feel about it if I challenged myself to now, but I feel like at a certain degree of presenting femme I'd really just lose it lol
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Eldritch [comrade/them] - 1.3yr
What you feel is valid and I support you 100%. You're not a fraud for feeling anything.
Remember that quote from Rocky Horror: "Don't Dream It, Be It!"
Follow your heart and you will hatch into something beautiful ❤️
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
thank youuuu. I think trusting my heart and intuition is something I need to work on for sure
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sodium_nitride [she/her, any] - 1.3yr
Oh, the feeling like a fraud thing. It really hits hard for me. There seems to be some kind of expectation about what growing up as trans, or being trans is supposed to be like. Not in this community, but at least in media, where if it comes up, it seems like everyone figures out that they are trans in their teens and immediately starts dressing like their opposite gender (and usually pass pretty well).
I also never particularly had the kinds of experiences where it feels like I have to transition no matter what, or that in my teens I'd figured everything out. Because let's be real, who has their life figured out before they are 20-25? And how is someone like me (idk if this applies to you), who was raised to "fit in" so harshly that I have nightmares about missing homework assignments supposed to all of a sudden completely change how I present myself to others?
And yeah, pretty much everything that you are saying also applies to me to a lesser extent. I've also rationalised it as gender fluidity, or at least being non-binary. I think if you want "evidence" of not being cis (I also had this problem), just know that typically cisgendered individuals just don't really have these kinds of thoughts. It's not something that most can relate to.
But that's the thing, do I just WANT to be seen as someone else, or NEED to be? What's the difference? I feel like I would NEED to take hormones, or want/need surgery to really ACTUALLY be who I feel I am...Especially since I've had more and more thoughts that feel cis??? Is the only way I can describe it. I feel like my identity is not much more than a choice of pronoun, and I just feel like I'm cosplaying or something
I'm not sure how helpful this might be to you, but back when I took a deep dive into egoist philosophy*, it really helped fix a lot of self esteem issues because I was able to unlearn, or at least identify many of the all pervasive phantasms that haunted my mind, and the minds of everyone socialised in modern society.
Obviously it took a lot more than reading philosophy to get to the point where I decided to take hormones (not saying that you have to, you just need to get to a point where you can make a decision about what you are going to do, because I know just how agonising the indecisiveness is). However, a lot of the problems that we face come from what we have been taught, and how we have been socialised. Reflecting on this can be valuable, even if you disagree.
Also, I don't think that learning some cool philosophy will really be such a bad thing
*it could be other types of similar philosophies
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
Not in this community, but at least in media, where if it comes up, it seems like everyone figures out that they are trans in their teens and immediately starts dressing like their opposite gender (and usually pass pretty well
I think this is something that maybe adds to this anxiety; specifically when it comes to social media and online discourse around transness. Like I need to recognize that social media isn't necessarily going to show me different facets of transness I guess, but I just don't have many people irl who can counterbalance that. I also think the "fitting in" to my assigned gender was something that was pushed on me quite a bit as a kid and early teen, as well as just needing to be "normal", kinda. Like I always dressed like a tomboy, my dad hated it, I'd get bullied or teased by peers, or I wasn't very desirable which I think maybe played into it. I'm primarily attracted to dudes, so not being a very femme girl doesn't really help in that department, especially as a teen. Which is something I'm just kinda realizing right now, that maybe part of my weird anxieties over cisness has to do with the male gaze or wanting to be "accepted". Like my partner has expressed that he would be fine if I transitioned, but even now I get anxiety about not being "attractive enough" (which I tie back to presenting as a typical woman), which is like a whole other thing that compounds it. Good lord lol
You've made me curious about this egoist philosophy stuff now. I think that could be really beneficial for me, the way you describe it. Do you have any book or podcast recommendations??
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sodium_nitride [she/her, any] - 1.3yr
Which is something I'm just kinda realizing right now, that maybe part of my weird anxieties over cisness has to do with the male gaze or wanting to be "accepted".
I never thought about it that way. I'm also attracted to dudes (MtF). I've been able to hook up with gay men so I know I could possibly find a partner while passing as male. But I might be anxious about not being able to pass as female. Especially since straight men don't exactly have the best reputation when it comes to female beauty standards.
You've made me curious about this egoist philosophy stuff now. I think that could be really beneficial for me, the way you describe it. Do you have any book or podcast recommendations??
Well, funnily enough, there are only 2 "classical" books on egoist philosophy because it was the product of just one author called max stirner. Those books were "the unique and its property" and "Stirner's critics". However, I wouldn't really recommend reading those books first, because they are steeped in irony, historical context and philosophical debates that took me a whole year to fully start understanding. Like, technically, the main text of the philosophy was meant to be a sarcastic criticism of 19th century German philosophy, but nobody got the joke or point so stirner had to make the second book "Stirner's critics" to explain things.
Also, fun fact, stiner was aparantly Freidrich Engel's friend and is thought to have influenced the development of Marxism greatly.
Now, there are some modern people who have revived interest in Stirner's philosophy, because it is like a secular western version of Buddhism. Of these, I would recommend the youtube channel Kane B the most, because he is an actual trained philospher and takes his time to explain things properly.
Also there is RevLeft radio who have done some episodes talking about related philopshies and egoism. They have a wider coverage of philosophy topics. I would recommend their episode on "the origin of the family, private property and the state" by Engels, because they go into a historical dive into how humanity got into this patriarchal nightmare in the first place.
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ratboy [they/them] - 1.3yr
Especially since straight men don't exactly have the best reputation when it comes to female beauty standards
Amen lol. Luckily I usually like the goofy types so they're a bit less vain in my experience
Your description of Stirner's writing style makes it seem more appealing to me now that I could keep the irony in mind. I do get in trouble with historical context though. Like I knew nothing about the French Revolution really, or Hegel or other economists of Marx& Engel's time...So when I started reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific I would get soooo distracted by hyperfocusing on and researching those things and forget what I was reading in the first place
I also just started listening to Red Menace and their pacing keeps me pretty interested so I'll definitely check that out as well as Kane B. Thank you soooo much
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narxys [he/him, they/them] - 1.1yr
I don't see internalised transphobia in what you said. It much more looks like questioning. And to be honest, as a trans man, it took me years to understand who I was. It can be long and a real mindfuck.
Unfortunately no body else than you can say who you are and no matter what conclusion you get, I hope you the best 🫶🏻
ratboy in traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns
Really struggling with my gender identity [cw: gender dysphoria/impostor syndrome, maybe internalized transphobia?]
I just really don't know how to feel or what to do or how to figure this out for myself so if anyone else has been in my shoes I'd really love some advice
[For context I'm in my 30's]
Sooooo growing up I knew that trans people existed, and I knew about androgyny which I was very fond of, but it wasn't up until my mid 20's that I had learned about genderfluidity or nonbinary identities. Once I heard it described, it just clicked with me and immediately I felt that that is what I was, nonbinary. This was around the time that gay marriage became legal in California, so really these terms were not widely used at all outside of queer communities. As a very young child most of my interests aligned with my gender assigned at birth, but even into 2nd and 3rd grade it was very obvious that I was more interested in hobbies and things typical of the opposite gender, and this has remained static. The things I liked, the ways I dressed for the most part, my choice in friends, my sexuality, the way I talk and kinda move around the world was more reflective, in my mind, of the "opposite gender". There were characteristics, however, that up until learning that I could be a third, secret gender (lol), were in alignment with my AGAB, so I never identified as anything but.
Now I have identified as nonbinary/agender/transmasc nonbinary for close to 15 years, but over the past few years I've been feeling like I am really not actually anything other than cisgender. Being misgendered by others still REALLY bothers me...But due to my experiences in the world and how I've always been perceived, I really do resonate with the experiences of my AGAB, especially when it comes to experiences of gender based violence. I feel like in my brain I slip and call myself my AGAB more now than I used to. I'm in relationships with people where it looks like a straight relationship. I don't really belong to any queer community, so I'm used to people constantly misgendering me, and it just feels like I'm always perceived as my AGAB even when gendered correctly.
I don't take hormones, I've never had any type of gender affirming surgeries, and I generally don't want to change my body. I have body dysmorphia, but that I think is more due to societal expectations of what my body is supposed to look like/chronic verbal abuse focused on my body. I have thought about hormones, I have wondered or wanted my body to align with my gender more but never to the point of feeling that I need to change it. But at this point, I feel like I should resign myself to just being cis. ADMIT to being cis....and I just feel like a fraud. I still bristle against the idea, but I just feel like I'm faking it, and have been faking it because no one else sees me as what I want to be seen as....But that's the thing, do I just WANT to be seen as someone else, or NEED to be? What's the difference? I feel like I would NEED to take hormones, or want/need surgery to really ACTUALLY be who I feel I am...Especially since I've had more and more thoughts that feel cis??? Is the only way I can describe it. I feel like my identity is not much more than a choice of pronoun, and I just feel like I'm cosplaying or something....So I don't really know what the fuck I am or how to figure it out. It's just one more thing to perseverate about and I wish I could just not think about it. But I don't know how to get there.
Just typical things cis people say...
But I think what’s holding you back is the fact that we live in an extremely cis-normative society, where enbies have their existence constantly denied from all sides, especially AFAB enbies. So it doesn’t surprise me at all that your self-perception is suffering from going through that every day.
Maybe a little thought experiment could help you a bit: Imagine you’re the last person on earth. No society to judge you, no peer pressure, no gender roles. Just you. Do you see yourself as cis now or still as an enby?
lol I was once told that cisgender people don't even really think about these things, or worry about it, which should be evidence enough to know what my truth is. Still difficult to trust myself though. Thanks for validating what I'm going through. I think part of what I do as well is while it can be agonizing, I do the thing where, I know that I have much more privilege being perceived as cis than other trans siblings, so it's like a black or white thing where I guess I dismiss any and all struggles with it because of that privilege, so I must be cis, where I should know better.
In your thought experiment, I guess I would still see myself as enby. I think ultimately if there were no constraints at all physically, mentally or socially, since highschool I've thought being a (trans) dude who will wear skirts and tights sometimes but wrenches on bikes and builds shit and rolls around in the dirt would be the ultimate gender expression lol.
There you go. That’s the answer.
And no, I don’t think it’s a privilege to get misgendered and having your identity overlooked. I certainly don’t envy you for that.
Thats a really good point, i guess its just a different type of struggle. Y'all are really giving me a lot to think about I'm glad I made this post thank you so much
hey other 30-something non-binary person~ you sound a lot like me tbh. i also have a unique and personal connection to my AGAB yet it makes my skin crawl to be seen as the adult human version of said gender (lol). i'm not a man, i'm not a woman, but i have lived stealthily as one the majority of my life. i'm not on hormones either but have thought about it.
look, there isn't a specific way or lifestyle we need to fit in order to be nonbinary. we don't need to have a miserable self-loathing experience to identify as trans. you are allowed to have incongruent gender while enjoying the assigned parts of yourself. you don't owe yourself pain.
I'm glad that there are some people that can share in some of the same experiences with this. Truly I think that some of the things folks have shared with me here are things that I need to write down and process. "You don't owe yourself pain" is really something that I need to use as a positive affirmation of sorts, because I think a lot of these feelings apply to many different parts of myself, but didnt really consider that til now. Thank you
Regardless of what you end up identifying as, you’re not a fraud. Figuring out who you are is a process, everyone takes a different amount of time to do that process but it doesn’t make them fraudulent if they identify as something different then they did previously, or return to a prior identity.
In general, I’m getting the vibe that you’re putting too much stock in others’ perception of you. Yes, it sucks when people misgender you, but it doesn’t give them power over what your identity is. You need to satisfy yourself, not others. Like, when I was younger I had a, non-gender conforming hairstyle in a small ass town and got misgendered by the occasional yokel that latched on to the most superficial aspect of gender presentation, despite everything else about me being very cisgendered in all other aspects. But it never made me go, oh shit maybe I’m trans because some dumbass misgendered me.
thanks for responding
I think I need to remember what you're saying over people having power over me. I think my sense of security in my identity in general is on very shaky ground, and that's probably where a lot of this anxiety is coming from, along with a sprinkle of learned helplessness lol. My insecurities are something I'm hoping to work on in therapy, but it's good to just get feedback from other queer comrades on this since I have none that I feel close enough to irl to kinda bounce this off of and get a lil bit of validation.
Hey, I'm also transmasc nonbinary, but I'm, in some ways, luckier than you because testosterone, top surgery, and a hysterectomy were clearly right for me. As a result, it's impossible for me to have the anxieties that you do about your gender; I'm clearly trans, look, I'm on hormones, how could I be anything else?
But of course, being on hormones (and having gender-affirming surgeries) doesn't make anyone more or less trans than anyone else. It's easy for me to be like "of course I'm trans" and use the physical stuff as evidence, but trans people who don't make any physical changes to their bodies are also trans, no less trans than I am. There's simply less physical evidence of their transness, that's all.
You're not cis just because you're cis-passing. You're not cis just because people around you treat you as though you are. You're not cis just because you don't feel the need to change your body with hormones and surgery. (Although it does sound to me like you might be interested in experimenting with hormones? I'm a bit of a hormone evangelist, because I actually was extremely unsure about whether I should take them and only after I started T did I realize how very, very good for me it is. So I'd urge you to give it a go if you have any curiosity. You can always quit before the physical changes get obvious.)
One last question: what is a "cis" thought, for you? I recently have been having thoughts like "well, I'm going to have to soon start pretending to be either a woman or a man, pretty clearly the political trend is towards complete erasure of nonbinary identities, and I'm going to pretend to be a woman. Even with my facial hair and voice that always gets me called "sir" on the phone. Conservatives don't like women who look like me? Tough. This situation is on them." And that, feels, to me, almost like a "cis" thought. Like, yeah, I guess I'm a woman then, if I have to shove myself into one box or the other. I wonder if your "cis thoughts" are similar, at least in the sense that society is screaming at you that you need to shove yourself into one of the two binary gender boxes and you're choosing to be shoved into the "woman" box because it's a bit more comfortable for you than the "man" box.
I sincerely hope I haven't said anything here that can be taken as offensive. I worry focusing so much on how much I've changed my body will come off as gauche or worse, will make you feel like maybe you're not really trans, or like I think you're not really trans. My intention is the opposite of that, I think your post gives off massive trans vibes and I mean it when I say trans people who don't make physical changes to their bodies are just as trans as those who do. Hormones and surgery are great for those who want them, but they in no way determine transness.
Hey first off you said nothing offensive at all! I totally get where your coming from and it makes sense to me. I also relate to people through sharing anecdotes and similar experiences so I appreciate everything you've had to say.
Second, do you mind if I DM you to talk about hormone stuff? I'd really like to ask questions if youre open to it!
Third, I think what I mean by cis thoughts is just kinda relating a lot to experiences of women I guess? Its kind of hard to explain. Idk, I think ive still got a lot of ingrained conceptions of what it is to be a man, woman, or other gender that I need to work out still and I think that can be difficult for me not having any queer community irl
Definitely feel free to DM me! I'm always happy to talk about my experience on testosterone!
It's not too surprising that you'd relate a lot to women's experiences, really. I do, for sure, I lived as a woman for quite a while after all. Interestingly, for me, I tend to feel most "like a woman" (whatever the fuck that means) when someone is spouting some misogynistic bullshit. The positive parts of womanhood don't speak to me at all, but I get personally outraged when someone is making generalized stupid statements about women, as though they're attacking me personally.
Gender feelings are tough, in my experience! They're so big, but also so murky and confusing, and sometimes seemingly downright contradictory, it's rough. Worth thinking about though!
Damn, yeah I think that's exactly it for me. When it comes to violence against women and other experiences unique to the gender, that is definitely when I feel I identify with it the most. Which I think makes sense, especially since all of this shit probably happens because I'm perceived as a woman, so people interact with and harm me like one. And now that I think about it, that might be something that plays into all of these anxieties, too. I just want to be treated like one of the guys and always have. If I did try to change my outward presentation, that might actually happen, so that probably contributes to feeling like a "fraud". Like oh, if I REALLY wanted to be treated like one of the guys, I'd do A B and/or C. I think I've really been able to look at this from a lot of different perspectives that I never had before by talking to you and everyone else, it's a good thing but also so wild that one lil post where I mostly just decide to scream into the void has yielded more realizations about this than I've ever had over the course of my life lol
::: spoiler flippant Gender is fake, so dont worry about faking it. Your gender is just as socially constructed as the next persons. ::: ::: spoiler serious
You talk about admitting to being cis, seemingly based on your lack of desire for hormones or to change your body. But gender isnt physical traits! Gender is a class division based on our relationship to reproductive and perpetuative labour. If youre relationship with that labor doesnt align with your AGAB or if you dont want it to then that is enough. Changing ones body is not the root of transness.
Is the need/want differentiation important? Who cares if you need vs want this. Most trans people are technically capable of existing as our AGAB, its just that our quality of life is terrible to the point some of us would rather kill ourselves. But self determination shouldnt be means tested, you shouldnt need to be suicidal to get an "approved trans" sticker. You seem hung up on the differentiation between wanting and needing, when i think it would be much more joyous to say "it doesnt matter if i want or need, this is something i desire so i will persue it".
Sometimes letting go of the justifications for why we are how we are is really really hard (it certainly is for me) but my life has gotten better as ive stopped trying to justify my transness, and just accepted that this is what I want, and i dont have to justify that to anyone, not even myself.
hey sorry i didnt respond to you I meant to but I always forget. I know you probably were not feeling like you needed one but here it is lol. I like your flippant answer, it is so real to be honest and I should remember that. I feel like I can apply a lot of what you say to anyone else but myself. But I am recognizing that is something I really need to work on; acceptance and also believing that I'm deserving of well, anything. Like this whole post has really made me connect the dots with a lot of my mental problems as of late and I think working on those things will probably help me resolve this issue naturally. I appreciate your outlook so much and that you chose to share it with me
Im really glad I was able to be helpful
it took me a very long time and lots of introspection and selfcrit to reach where i am and im really glad someone else can also get use out of all that pain and confusion i went - and sometimes still do go - through.
I feel you so hard on being able to apply things to other people but not to yourself, i do the same thing. Self love cant save us from everything, but it can save us from ourselves
If you want to talk and chew this fat at all, im around and available to talk.
When I was figuring out my gender, I was also really worried about 'faking it' or 'pretending' and being a fraud. The way I envisioned it at the time, I didn't think I was going to change myself or my appearance enough, and I didn't think that the discomfort I had with my assigned gender was strong enough to clear the threshold of counting as trans. For a while that kept me from pursuing the idea, or accepting myself, and I continued pushing the feelings down.
That changed when, for a moment, my perspective shifted and the idea of "cosplaying as cis" popped into my head. I started realizing how much the things I had been openly saying to myself while holding back from accepting my gender fit with that idea.
"As long as I don't tell anyone how much I think about my gender, and I pretend it doesn't bother me when people misgender me, and I say I don't have any dysphoria at all, and I choose my appearance to match what people expect from me, and I hide how much seeing trans people means to me personally... then I can probably keep people convinced I'm cis."
I realized that as worried as I was about being 'authentically trans', I clearly was not 'authentically cis'. If I applied the kind of judgement I worried about receiving for claiming to be trans, then I would absolutely be a fraud if I claimed to be cis. After that I dropped the idea of identifying as cis, and was much more comfortable exploring what I did or didn't want to identify with beyond that. I still get nervous that other people might judge me for 'not being trans enough', but not in a way that makes me question what I know about myself.
Damn, that logic really makes sense to me. Ive never really tried to fit the mold of my AGAB, so I don't really know how I'd feel about it if I challenged myself to now, but I feel like at a certain degree of presenting femme I'd really just lose it lol
What you feel is valid and I support you 100%. You're not a fraud for feeling anything. Remember that quote from Rocky Horror: "Don't Dream It, Be It!" Follow your heart and you will hatch into something beautiful ❤️
Oh, the feeling like a fraud thing. It really hits hard for me. There seems to be some kind of expectation about what growing up as trans, or being trans is supposed to be like. Not in this community, but at least in media, where if it comes up, it seems like everyone figures out that they are trans in their teens and immediately starts dressing like their opposite gender (and usually pass pretty well).
I also never particularly had the kinds of experiences where it feels like I have to transition no matter what, or that in my teens I'd figured everything out. Because let's be real, who has their life figured out before they are 20-25? And how is someone like me (idk if this applies to you), who was raised to "fit in" so harshly that I have nightmares about missing homework assignments supposed to all of a sudden completely change how I present myself to others?
And yeah, pretty much everything that you are saying also applies to me to a lesser extent. I've also rationalised it as gender fluidity, or at least being non-binary. I think if you want "evidence" of not being cis (I also had this problem), just know that typically cisgendered individuals just don't really have these kinds of thoughts. It's not something that most can relate to.
I'm not sure how helpful this might be to you, but back when I took a deep dive into egoist philosophy*, it really helped fix a lot of self esteem issues because I was able to unlearn, or at least identify many of the all pervasive phantasms that haunted my mind, and the minds of everyone socialised in modern society.
Obviously it took a lot more than reading philosophy to get to the point where I decided to take hormones (not saying that you have to, you just need to get to a point where you can make a decision about what you are going to do, because I know just how agonising the indecisiveness is). However, a lot of the problems that we face come from what we have been taught, and how we have been socialised. Reflecting on this can be valuable, even if you disagree.
Also, I don't think that learning some cool philosophy will really be such a bad thing
*it could be other types of similar philosophies
I think this is something that maybe adds to this anxiety; specifically when it comes to social media and online discourse around transness. Like I need to recognize that social media isn't necessarily going to show me different facets of transness I guess, but I just don't have many people irl who can counterbalance that. I also think the "fitting in" to my assigned gender was something that was pushed on me quite a bit as a kid and early teen, as well as just needing to be "normal", kinda. Like I always dressed like a tomboy, my dad hated it, I'd get bullied or teased by peers, or I wasn't very desirable which I think maybe played into it. I'm primarily attracted to dudes, so not being a very femme girl doesn't really help in that department, especially as a teen. Which is something I'm just kinda realizing right now, that maybe part of my weird anxieties over cisness has to do with the male gaze or wanting to be "accepted". Like my partner has expressed that he would be fine if I transitioned, but even now I get anxiety about not being "attractive enough" (which I tie back to presenting as a typical woman), which is like a whole other thing that compounds it. Good lord lol
You've made me curious about this egoist philosophy stuff now. I think that could be really beneficial for me, the way you describe it. Do you have any book or podcast recommendations??
I never thought about it that way. I'm also attracted to dudes (MtF). I've been able to hook up with gay men so I know I could possibly find a partner while passing as male. But I might be anxious about not being able to pass as female. Especially since straight men don't exactly have the best reputation when it comes to female beauty standards.
Well, funnily enough, there are only 2 "classical" books on egoist philosophy because it was the product of just one author called max stirner. Those books were "the unique and its property" and "Stirner's critics". However, I wouldn't really recommend reading those books first, because they are steeped in irony, historical context and philosophical debates that took me a whole year to fully start understanding. Like, technically, the main text of the philosophy was meant to be a sarcastic criticism of 19th century German philosophy, but nobody got the joke or point so stirner had to make the second book "Stirner's critics" to explain things.
Also, fun fact, stiner was aparantly Freidrich Engel's friend and is thought to have influenced the development of Marxism greatly.
Now, there are some modern people who have revived interest in Stirner's philosophy, because it is like a secular western version of Buddhism. Of these, I would recommend the youtube channel Kane B the most, because he is an actual trained philospher and takes his time to explain things properly.
Also there is RevLeft radio who have done some episodes talking about related philopshies and egoism. They have a wider coverage of philosophy topics. I would recommend their episode on "the origin of the family, private property and the state" by Engels, because they go into a historical dive into how humanity got into this patriarchal nightmare in the first place.
Amen lol. Luckily I usually like the goofy types so they're a bit less vain in my experience
Your description of Stirner's writing style makes it seem more appealing to me now that I could keep the irony in mind. I do get in trouble with historical context though. Like I knew nothing about the French Revolution really, or Hegel or other economists of Marx& Engel's time...So when I started reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific I would get soooo distracted by hyperfocusing on and researching those things and forget what I was reading in the first place
I also just started listening to Red Menace and their pacing keeps me pretty interested so I'll definitely check that out as well as Kane B. Thank you soooo much
I don't see internalised transphobia in what you said. It much more looks like questioning. And to be honest, as a trans man, it took me years to understand who I was. It can be long and a real mindfuck. Unfortunately no body else than you can say who you are and no matter what conclusion you get, I hope you the best 🫶🏻