comrade sucked into anti-trans conspiracism --- try to pull them out?
I don't know if any CW are required for this but if so suggest them and I will add. I'm not mentioning any particular hateful things; just the presence of them.
An old comrade of mine has fallen into the grips of anti trans bigotry.
It has been happening for 10+ years and I have raised the issue multiple times when we've been together or in touch. They downplayed their investment in the ideas.
Recently I have learned that it has crept into their mass organizing. This person is an excellent, committed, powerful organizer working for years at a local level.
I think they are now getting in to organizing explicitly on anti-trans grounds. They have capacity to be highly effective at this. But really it is the integration of anti-trans stuff into legitimate mass organizing work that is more dangerous. My understanding is that they are seeking to orient these orgs against the interests of trans people and to exclude trans people and even trans-allied people from organizing.
This person made many key political contributions to who I am. Much of the good I have done as an organizer is due to their influence on me. Without them I would have ended up the most insufferable kind of lib. On a personal level, it breaks my heart to see this has happened to a dear friend. I feel compelled to attempt to return the wisdom and patience they afforded me when I needed it, and offer them a better perspective, help them be a better organizer.
I plan to attempt intervention. We live far away from each other but do keep occasional contact. Less so over recent years just due to being on different social media platforms. I could get some correspondence and maybe a phone call to discuss this on the basis of our long standing relationship. I would offer to maintain the dialogue on going if they were willing.
general advice?
have you tried this and if so how did it go?
is there hope?
some kind of FAQ covering anti-trans misinformation; more in-depth and comprehensive would be better (for me to read)
writing/ideas aimed specifically at communists/socialists
theory to understand trans* from marxist/materialist perspective
I know this sounds stupid but they already have theory to hate trans*
This person is coming at it from a TERF (as in actual old school radical feminsm) perspective, not a right-wing/fash perspective
The idea of "bourgeois decadence" is important here. It's not something I ever found to be very compelling so I don't have much analysis to counter it.
Of course I have my own ideas and knowledge but I'm sure all of the above has been perfected so I want to make sure I have the best at top of mind.
This person is pretty stubborn, as required to be a lifelong revolutionary. So I know I'm not going to turn the ship around in one conversation. I am considering strategy of reformism or harm reduction. For example if I could convince them to avoid bringing these ideas into their organizing, even while still holding them privately, it would be a benefit.
Erika3sis [she/her, xe/xem] - 1.8yr
The idea of "bourgeois decadence" is important here. It's not something I ever found to be very compelling so I don't have much analysis to counter it.
The obvious answer here is that there are millions upon millions of trans people who have just never come out or transitioned, because it's just unsafe or not materially feasible for them. Calling transitioning "bourgeois decadence" is like saying that having clean drinking water is bourgeois decadence, simply because the wealthy don't struggle with acquiring it like the poor do.
Anyways I'd handwritten a whole essay maybe a year ago presenting a case for supporting trans rights from a materialist perspective, but it was too long to fit in a Lemmy comment so maybe I'll share that as its own post later. I'm not sure if I agree with it 100% in hindsight but it's still got some interesting thoughts.
Otherwise Marxism Today made a video on trans liberation, and I've been meaning to check out Feinberg.
21
glans [it/its] - 1.8yr
Ya I find the argument compelling but does it address what people mean when they say decadence? I will maybe have to go learn about the idea better because it seems easily defeated. Is there anything labeled decadent that your counter argument doesn't apply to?
Feinberg: I read the main works years ago and I don't think is going to be helpful here unless he also wrote totally different lesser-known stuff someone could specifically recommend. My recollection is that he was writing for a popular audience who either are trans people themselves or are friendly to the idea. And sprinkling some marxism in. Certainly he must have encountered people like this in his life though, so maybe there's something.
9
Erika3sis [she/her, xe/xem] - 1.8yr
I'm only speaking for myself, but the impression that I get from the term "bourgeois decadence" is essentially that someone is so rich that thon can just flout social norms more or less without consequence, and that because the bourgeoisie already necessarily oppresses the proletariat in order to exist, that capitalists are going to be shitty people who will desire to disregard social norms more than proletarians.
The problem comes when someone acts like every instance of a rich person using their wealth to flout a social norm is "cut from the same cloth" — this is an uncritical way of looking at social norms. In truth some social norms which are widespread among the proletariat do serve the interests of the class, but many other social norms have been imposed by the bourgeoisie (or just as well inherited during proletarianization and never unlearned), and many other social norms still have some aspects which are beneficial and some aspects which are harmful to the proletariat. To figure out which social norms belong in which categories, one needs to actually analyze the roles that these norms play in society in context.
7
HexReplyBot [none/use name] - 1.8yr
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
The video on Marxism Today was really good especially towards the end the part about dialectics and sexual metaphysics. I'm going to follow the citations on those ones.
5
corgiwithalaptop [any, love/loves] - 1.8yr
Good luck! Hope you can pull them out, but just be ready for a tough struggle.
20
kristina [she/her] - 1.8yr
Break their jaw?
18
FemboyStalin [she/her,any] - 1.8yr
You could beat them up. It probably won't do anything when it comes to being anti trans but it might feel good. Plus they deserve it.
17
plinky [he/him] - 1.8yr
That fighting against culture of bourgeois decadence is, in itself, decadence of material philosophy. Being exploited doesn't give a shit about someone being trans, but it surely helps when there is society around them ostracize them. Or there are socialists to rally around dividing working people, fbi would be thrilled.
They can just join pinkertons and cutout the ideological middleman in their head, if they (plan to) organize not against capital, but against fellow workers or divide them across racial gender lines. usa has rich history of unions doing that with race and immigrants, didn't work out so well
15
glans [it/its] - 1.8yr
ha! I have considered asking them if they have come into the employ of the state. or if they have considered that they might have been the target either individually or as part of a group, of a campaign of distraction/diversion/division. Even if I was completely neutral on the idea of trans people, I would be able to see that this person's eyes are no longer on the prize.
Not sure it's a winning argument directly. If I was targeting people around them to try to minimize their influence I would use it.
6
plinky [he/him] - 1.8yr
Depends on their self-reflexiveness, maybe it will become a needle probing consciousness when their thoughts go in that direction, maybe it won't, never know without knowing a person. I'm not saying tell them they are feds or imply it, i'm saying they might be doing fed work for free influenced by some societal germs floating around (and you can't come to those ideas intelectually, stranded on a lone island traveller won't arrive at the idea of trans people not being real).
4
Des [she/her, they/them] - 1.8yr
i have no advice on this but it scares me this is starting to creep into the left like this
i've had plenty of experience getting chuds to become either pro-trans rights or at least neutral on it but never fellow leftists
13
glans [it/its] - 1.8yr
You've never gotten a leftist to become trans affirmative/neutral because you never had to try? Or because the ones you met are all so entrenched that you failed?
5
Des [she/her, they/them] - 1.8yr
none i've met in person weren't already trans affirmative
5
hypercracker - 1.8yr
Same thing happened to me. Unfortunately the way it went is every social call I had with them devolved into long tedious and infuriating discussions that quickly dispelled the large amount of respect I had for them. I had to become like some kind of fucking journalist in my off-hours searching out info to debug random shit they read online. Eventually we just stopped talking as there was nothing positive actually keeping the relationship together. They're probably off running for schoolboard so they can better prosecute their bigoted shit now.
11
rtstragedy - 1.8yr
theory to understand trans* from marxist/materialist perspective
A human being's individual choices about what we do with our own bodies is not up for debate, and doesn't require any explanation. It's creepy to be so obsessed with it and it really shows the sexual pathology of politics theory. It is a derailment of the actual material goals of leftist movements, because "eeeww, a trans!". Like, if suddenly trans people didn't exist, how would his life be any different? It wouldn't, and any suggestion to the contrary by them is an admission of fabricating things because they're plane bigoted.
A rare W for Trotsky: "if you cannot convince a fascist, acquaint his head with the pavement".
9
MaoTheLawn [any, any] - 1.8yr
What's sort of things? Post their concerns and I'm sure hexbear will be there to answer every point.
8
EllenKelly [comrade/them] - 1.8yr
Hey comrade I only just saw this, just incase you havent already already read transgender liberation
also if you dont end up being able to talk sense to this person, have a little faith people in organising spaces know what transphobia is and will attempt stop them (i hope)
glans in traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns
comrade sucked into anti-trans conspiracism --- try to pull them out?
I don't know if any CW are required for this but if so suggest them and I will add. I'm not mentioning any particular hateful things; just the presence of them.
An old comrade of mine has fallen into the grips of anti trans bigotry.
It has been happening for 10+ years and I have raised the issue multiple times when we've been together or in touch. They downplayed their investment in the ideas.
Recently I have learned that it has crept into their mass organizing. This person is an excellent, committed, powerful organizer working for years at a local level.
I think they are now getting in to organizing explicitly on anti-trans grounds. They have capacity to be highly effective at this. But really it is the integration of anti-trans stuff into legitimate mass organizing work that is more dangerous. My understanding is that they are seeking to orient these orgs against the interests of trans people and to exclude trans people and even trans-allied people from organizing.
This person made many key political contributions to who I am. Much of the good I have done as an organizer is due to their influence on me. Without them I would have ended up the most insufferable kind of lib. On a personal level, it breaks my heart to see this has happened to a dear friend. I feel compelled to attempt to return the wisdom and patience they afforded me when I needed it, and offer them a better perspective, help them be a better organizer.
I plan to attempt intervention. We live far away from each other but do keep occasional contact. Less so over recent years just due to being on different social media platforms. I could get some correspondence and maybe a phone call to discuss this on the basis of our long standing relationship. I would offer to maintain the dialogue on going if they were willing.
Of course I have my own ideas and knowledge but I'm sure all of the above has been perfected so I want to make sure I have the best at top of mind.
This person is pretty stubborn, as required to be a lifelong revolutionary. So I know I'm not going to turn the ship around in one conversation. I am considering strategy of reformism or harm reduction. For example if I could convince them to avoid bringing these ideas into their organizing, even while still holding them privately, it would be a benefit.
The obvious answer here is that there are millions upon millions of trans people who have just never come out or transitioned, because it's just unsafe or not materially feasible for them. Calling transitioning "bourgeois decadence" is like saying that having clean drinking water is bourgeois decadence, simply because the wealthy don't struggle with acquiring it like the poor do.
Anyways I'd handwritten a whole essay maybe a year ago presenting a case for supporting trans rights from a materialist perspective, but it was too long to fit in a Lemmy comment so maybe I'll share that as its own post later. I'm not sure if I agree with it 100% in hindsight but it's still got some interesting thoughts.
Otherwise Marxism Today made a video on trans liberation, and I've been meaning to check out Feinberg.
Ya I find the argument compelling but does it address what people mean when they say decadence? I will maybe have to go learn about the idea better because it seems easily defeated. Is there anything labeled decadent that your counter argument doesn't apply to?
please at me if you can remember :)
Trans Liberation & Marxism: Is Gender Identity Actually Anti-Materialist? | Let's Talk Patriarchy - I put it into my phone for listening, thanks
Feinberg: I read the main works years ago and I don't think is going to be helpful here unless he also wrote totally different lesser-known stuff someone could specifically recommend. My recollection is that he was writing for a popular audience who either are trans people themselves or are friendly to the idea. And sprinkling some marxism in. Certainly he must have encountered people like this in his life though, so maybe there's something.
I'm only speaking for myself, but the impression that I get from the term "bourgeois decadence" is essentially that someone is so rich that thon can just flout social norms more or less without consequence, and that because the bourgeoisie already necessarily oppresses the proletariat in order to exist, that capitalists are going to be shitty people who will desire to disregard social norms more than proletarians.
The problem comes when someone acts like every instance of a rich person using their wealth to flout a social norm is "cut from the same cloth" — this is an uncritical way of looking at social norms. In truth some social norms which are widespread among the proletariat do serve the interests of the class, but many other social norms have been imposed by the bourgeoisie (or just as well inherited during proletarianization and never unlearned), and many other social norms still have some aspects which are beneficial and some aspects which are harmful to the proletariat. To figure out which social norms belong in which categories, one needs to actually analyze the roles that these norms play in society in context.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
The video on Marxism Today was really good especially towards the end the part about dialectics and sexual metaphysics. I'm going to follow the citations on those ones.
Good luck! Hope you can pull them out, but just be ready for a tough struggle.
Break their jaw?
You could beat them up. It probably won't do anything when it comes to being anti trans but it might feel good. Plus they deserve it.
That fighting against culture of bourgeois decadence is, in itself, decadence of material philosophy. Being exploited doesn't give a shit about someone being trans, but it surely helps when there is society around them ostracize them. Or there are socialists to rally around dividing working people, fbi would be thrilled.
They can just join pinkertons and cutout the ideological middleman in their head, if they (plan to) organize not against capital, but against fellow workers or divide them across
racialgender lines. usa has rich history of unions doing that with race and immigrants, didn't work out so wellha! I have considered asking them if they have come into the employ of the state. or if they have considered that they might have been the target either individually or as part of a group, of a campaign of distraction/diversion/division. Even if I was completely neutral on the idea of trans people, I would be able to see that this person's eyes are no longer on the prize.
Not sure it's a winning argument directly. If I was targeting people around them to try to minimize their influence I would use it.
Depends on their self-reflexiveness, maybe it will become a needle probing consciousness when their thoughts go in that direction, maybe it won't, never know without knowing a person. I'm not saying tell them they are feds or imply it, i'm saying they might be doing fed work for free influenced by some societal germs floating around (and you can't come to those ideas intelectually, stranded on a lone island traveller won't arrive at the idea of trans people not being real).
i have no advice on this but it scares me this is starting to creep into the left like this
i've had plenty of experience getting chuds to become either pro-trans rights or at least neutral on it but never fellow leftists
You've never gotten a leftist to become trans affirmative/neutral because you never had to try? Or because the ones you met are all so entrenched that you failed?
none i've met in person weren't already trans affirmative
Same thing happened to me. Unfortunately the way it went is every social call I had with them devolved into long tedious and infuriating discussions that quickly dispelled the large amount of respect I had for them. I had to become like some kind of fucking journalist in my off-hours searching out info to debug random shit they read online. Eventually we just stopped talking as there was nothing positive actually keeping the relationship together. They're probably off running for schoolboard so they can better prosecute their bigoted shit now.
maybe i'm in over my head here but perhaps this fits? https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/vikky-storm-the-gender-accelerationist-manifesto
thank you :3
A human being's individual choices about what we do with our own bodies is not up for debate, and doesn't require any explanation. It's creepy to be so obsessed with it and it really shows the sexual pathology of politics theory. It is a derailment of the actual material goals of leftist movements, because "eeeww, a trans!". Like, if suddenly trans people didn't exist, how would his life be any different? It wouldn't, and any suggestion to the contrary by them is an admission of fabricating things because they're plane bigoted.
A rare W for Trotsky: "if you cannot convince a fascist, acquaint his head with the pavement".
What's sort of things? Post their concerns and I'm sure hexbear will be there to answer every point.
Hey comrade I only just saw this, just incase you havent already already read transgender liberation
https://hexbear.net/post/72043
also if you dont end up being able to talk sense to this person, have a little faith people in organising spaces know what transphobia is and will attempt stop them (i hope)